Are you serious? http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoprojector The rules CLEARLY STATES the case. If you don't want to play by the rules when the rules are written, i really don't know why even bother...
Check my post above, there are 2 contradicting rules there. In the example it say it doesn't cancel because it PERFORMS and iddle, the cancelation clause is the declaration of the skill and according with Fireteam rules the model have to declare the order (unless he can't perform it, like a hacking action for a non hacker) So, there is something wrong here, the example, the fireteam rules or the cancelation clause for Holo 1.
The SUPPORT SKILL of a "non-team leader" is the skill declared if the TL declare a BS Attack or similar. The only ways for a "non-team leader" to NOT declare a Support Skill are movements, Dodge and Reset. All other skills are converted to Support Skill. (disclaimer: maybe i missed some other skill, but you should get the meaning)
You say "rules are clear", I say "rules cleary have typo". No, that's not true. They also declare BS Attack, which gets converted to performing an Idle. The cancellation clause of Holo1 is meant to read "performs" instead of "declares" as is obvious by the example. Let's look at the actual rules text for Fireteam during active turn: However, all members of a Fireteam must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order or Entire Order as the Team Leader. Any Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, a Fireteam member cannot perform are considered an Idle. However, troopers will perform the Short Skills of that Order they are able to perform. In this situation, the other Fireteam members will perform their Order normally.
Let's start again http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoprojector A HP1 model in a Fireteam (active turn) is revealed only in case of Dodge, Reset or if he is the Team Leader and declares a "revealing" skill. This is how the rule works. Because it in clearly stated in the Holoprojector Rules.
Ok, let's restart this: Fireteam rules: Cancelation clause of Holo 1 Holo 1 example: According with the rules, the Holo 1 must declare Move + BS attack, that declaration will break Holo 1 According with the example, Holo 1 is only cancelled when the order is performed.
Adressing both of you. I think I kind of see it. I did a search of the term "considered ... idle" and couldn't find it used elsewhere in the rules other than for Fireteams. Yes, there's similar phrases, but when declaring an illegal skill you perform an Idle instead, the skill declaration isn't "considered ... an Idle" It's a very unfortunately similar choice of words if I'm correct, but it does make mechanical sense even without the example.
So the exception would be this one: When declaring an order as part of a fireteam and not being the team leader, a Holo1 model doesn't cancel the state Holoproyector 1; unless said order requires him to make a roll. Right?
No, mate, it's sufficient that the TeamLeader declares an order that the (f.ex.) Hafza treats as an Idle. Other skills that don't get turned into Idle are evaluated against cancellation criteria for Holo1 Declaring Jump will cancel Holo1, for example.
What Mahtamori said. Anything that gets performed and would break Holo1, such as Dodge, Reset, Jump or Climb.
So the FT let him declare orders that would cancel the state without canceling it only if those orders become idles. Ok clear now!
Except for that example in Holo1. Could we please get that flagged as being an exception, rather than a general rule?
I agree with these, it is important enough to deseve its own line in the rules text. Now it's missleading.
First. You are extrapolating rules between totally different aspects of the game. Second. Remember that HP1 is NOT a Marker state. Its cancellation clauses cannot be extended to marker states. Third. You have an example that tell you what to do with a HP1 (i'll start to field all my HP1 models as Harry Potters from now on!) in a Fireteam. You DO NOT have the same example in Camouflage, so you are not to apply the same. Why do you pretend to apply a rule specific to a skill to other skills? It's the same than pretending to add MA modifiers to BS attacks because they are all FtF rolls. Come on...
For what it is worth I think that Patroclus Holo3 in Holoecho mode would not be cancelled by Achilles declaring BS Attack for the reason given in Holo1's clarifying example. However, that is the only case with bleed-over from this example as I haven't been able to find any rules which would interface in the same way because the specific way a Fireteam handles the Idle conversion at declaration is unique.
But it's a totally valid extrapolation; both are states (that state being represented by another model or a marker has nothing to do with the issue) and the cancelation clauses are exact point by point. In this case if the rules are coherent both must be cancelled in the exact same circunstances. Also, according with the Fireteam rules the skills are declared even when a iddle is performed, which is the exact same case than the coordinated order. In this case there is a new rule in a game example that is showing how a cancelation clause that is present in more than one state works differently for one of them without telling it explicitly. That's looking for trouble. Now we have ijw clarification and we now how that works, but it should get clarified/reworded.
It isn't the same for Coordinated Orders. In a Fireteam, the supporting units' skill declaration "are considered an Idle" In a coordinated order, all troopers "count as having declared all skills" even if they don't perform the skill.
