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What to do if a FAQ ruling is clearly wrong?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hecaton, Jul 8, 2019.

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  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I guess we take a fundamentally different approach to reading Infinity FAQs. To me, this one states that an engineer can neither repair an AI Beacon nor another deployable equipment (such as a Mine or MadTrap).

    However, I would like to add, discussing things like this (fallout and secondary effects of a FAQ ruling) is one of the several constructive outlets available rather than the options you listed in your initial post.
     
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  2. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Isnt this at odds with your usual argument that RAW Is King? If Reasoning matters I feel like there would be half the arguments there are in this forum.
     
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  3. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Well for me RAW is king, but the chain of logic that reasoning is using is also almost always part of RAW.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, my point is that what's written in the rulebook and the FAQ contradict each other - that's a situation you can't really resolve with RAW.

    And before someone says anything, no, I'm not saying the FAQ can never change anything in the written rules, though it would be nice if it was more clearly stated as errata when that was the case. Expel would be a good example of this.
     
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  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    If a FAQ contradicts the rulebook, you always have to stick to the FAQ. Always.
    Being they more recent, they amend any possible misinterpretation or translating/editing/unintended error.
     
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  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    In a normal game, in which faqs are only answers, you should stick to the rulebook&erratas, because faqs are not rules but questions about the rules. But in here, half of the faqs are errata in disguise and some are in the forum, so you have to stick to faqs and pray there is no more info out there
     
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  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The FAQ gives us an answer to play with, so until that FAQ is changed we have our answer. However the reasoning is incorrect (or more strictly, it has nothing to do with the answer), so it's ok to ask for that random line so it get fixed/clarified.
    "The bearer of the AI Beacon is considered a piece of Deployable Equipment, and not a trooper." is true, but that have nothing to do with the question is like:
    You have your answer, and some extra random line.

    There is more info out of there, you have a rules forum full of very important clarifications (and it's RAW if your TO consider it RAW)
     
  8. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I actually think that is a problem. You can't honestly expect everyone who plays infinity to hang out on the forums. And i certainly can't force my opponnents to accept some ruling that is found in no official documents and only on an internet discussion platform. If you go to infinity tournaments often TOs judge differently than what this rules forum says. I know warcors who say hacking vs cc is no face-to-face roll. (And yeah they organize official events)

    Am i really supposed to walk around with forum screenshots to prove my points?
     
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  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    To reiterate.

    FAQ for god or evil is the official stance on the matter any deviation from it is house ruling.

    If you like it fine

    If you do not like it raise politely your objection.

    if you think its completely wrong in its justification see above.
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    A faq gives an answer, yes. But if that answer contradicts the rules, is not a good answer. The faqs should abide by the rules, not to change them. Only erratas shoud do changes.

    Obviously, if there is no contradiction, you have to follow the faq, because is an explanation of what to do, but that is not the topic here
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh. When a ruling is made in clear awareness of what the rulebook text is (like the one for Expel), then it isn't a problem. When a ruling is made in seeming ignorance of what the rules say (Like this or the Shock/Dogged/NWI one that got redacted), then it's two problems, both the ruling itself and the process whereby people who don't understand the rules are making rulings, whether they're Warcors on the FAQ committee or CB employees.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, unfortunately. It's very unprofessional of CB; the fact that their FAQ document contains a lot of errata not labeled as errata is another problem.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, if it's "for evil" then I don't see why the community can't organize to not play along with the emperor without any clothes.
     
  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong, it IS a big problem; going an event without knowing if that meta use something wildly different to yours and finding it the hard way isn't pretty.
    Infinity rules try to run away from the "rules bloat" but that had backfired hard imo. Wargames rely on good resource management and careful plans, and to do that you need to know rules, armies and every interaction inside out; something that this system doesn't allow you, even if you are willing to invest the time.
    The face to face rolls is another example of that, it's one of the core mechanics in infinity, but it leaves too open to possible interpretations (Hacking versus CC? What if the CC program cause IMM? And Isolated?...)
     
  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is "for evil" in your opinion and as I said above do it in a polite way.

    Seriously the biggest hindrance in changing things the way you may think would be better is you and every other who advocates the things they want in your style of demands. this style of posting does not grant you support neither from the wider player base nor from the decision makers who you insult.

    And makes our job when we want to advocate such a change more difficult because we have to argue over such attitude and we do not have support from a player base alienated from such attitude.
     
  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I hope you guys are above the tone argument fallacy; a good point is still a good point even when presented awfully. And I don't think you need support for the player base of the forum to make a rules change in any direction. Just do what is best for the product; some people will complain, some people will like it and some people will find out 6 months later when someone tell him.

    That doesn't mean manners doesn't matter; they are very important, a good skill to have in life, and of course personal attacks are always out of the question. You can question some part of the product or the choices, but not personally attack the people behind these.
    And of course a bad attitude will have consequences (less credit or positive reactions to his feedback, less oportunity to develop the ideas in the threads and discuss the points, less oportunities to get more involved with the community or the creation of future rules and in some extreme cases a ban); but good points being dissmised shouldn't be one of these consequences, consider them; just don't praise or reward bad attitudes.
     
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  17. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    As PS noted, though, the same posters making the same complaints over and over again, fallacy or not, weakens their point, since they appear to be complaining simple to complain, are not indicative of a real problem, and will simply continue to complain regardless of any steps taken. One can be dismissive of that attitude and believe CB ought not to act that way, but that does not change the fact that the *way* “concerns” are communicated affects how they are received. And I can’t blame CB for dismissing the discourteous as disingenuous and in less than good faith when they’ve been advised time and again that they are hurting the cause they allegedly champion.
     
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    100% true, we are all humans and that's a perfectly natural way to react to these attitudes.
    My point is CB should care about offering a good product (becase at the end of the day, a better product is money for them) and they have the ability to assess if a proposal is good or not; and if they see a good way to improve the game in the complain manta of a user, it wouldn't be smart to voluntarily choose not using that because of said user. And at the same time, we users should try to offer our feedback in the best way possible and just be patient.
    I just think everyone have something to offer, but that doesn't mean bad attitudes should be ignored or rewarded.
     
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  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Here's an interesting statement from the rules:

    When a trooper on a Motorcycle declares the Short Skill Move and announces he will Dismount, replace the mounted figure by a Motorcycle Marker (MOTORCYCLE) or a piece of scenery of similar diameter.​

    A "Piece of scenery" is listed as an option to stand in for a troopers Motorcycle. Is the Motorcycle here a trooper? Piece of Equipment? A Marker? I don't know exactly, but it continues to look more and more like the line between deployable equipment and scenery is extremely blurry.
    Others have implied the same thing. However I find the justifications being used hard to swallow.

    Players are deciding to ignore the errors and inconsistencies within this FAQ. Instead they are following 'FAQ as written' lol. I have no problem with this. However, the same players are deciding to ignore the RAW surrounding this game state. In other words, all equipment not on scenery still functions after reaching 0-STR. I'd normally say you can't have it both ways here. Unfortunately, Infinity has taught me that you probable can.

    The only constant seems to be that players can follow RAW whenever they please. I'm fairly happy with my definition of "Scenery Item" within the rules. So until this FAQ or the rules themselves are cleared up, I'm going to play equipment contrary to the RAW and the FAQ. Meaning after reaching 0-STR, Equipment doesn't still function but it can be repaired.

    How many things in Infinity can't be revived or repaired after their W/STR hits zero? If equipment is the only thing being claimed as irreparable, that would be another oddity to consider.
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Well it is not expected for most people to carry around a 55mm base or marker for a dismounted motorcycle, even more so if it was from a bounty hunter a piece of scenery to proxy the bike without the driver is a logical substitute.
     
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