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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: E/M is a crippling strong effect against everyone but Veterans. Whether you're bricked or not, it's still a massively debilitating effect.

    While HI do suffer the added effect of IMM-2, they also tend to have better BS, PH, and BTS to prevent this effect from landing in the first place. E/M is also universally starting at Burst 1, so it's fairly hard to sneak past a HI's natural stats. Actually landing the E/M effect on a high-stat, high-BTS unit is a significant challenge.

    The same is true with Adhesive.
     
  2. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Not only that, but often then you still have to kill it afterwards to be worth something to you (in missions where kills / points in zones count). So it can be debilitating, but it's often worth very little by itself, or without even more orders to follow it up.
     
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  3. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I have had a mission where 6 models in a group have been glued, and I've promptly just spent 7 orders on the remaining members (I didn't win, but that because both my opponent and I got target fixation and only remembered the actual mission at the bottom of turn 3). E/M is worse, but isolated is bad for virtually everyone.

    I chose my wording specifically because that phrase is usually is used to mean the opposite, so people would be forced to think about it:stuck_out_tongue:
    I think the points where linear ARM costs increase in non-linear manner, which seem to coincide with effective increases in ARM vs AP ammo, are actually poorly balanced, at least for the first couple of limits (so ARM 2->3, ARM 4->5 etc.)
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    E/M is carried by units that have those weapons as complementary weapons.
    Zapper on Nox, it's not like a 13-point unit with low BS is going to do much against a heavy hitter like Tarik or Su-Jian, so Zapp it. Su-Jian has a 50-50 of becoming completely disabled which is as good as Unconscious for most missions (considering how rare Killing as an objective is) while Tarik will stand there massively annoyed but still ready to crit you to hell and back if you flinch.
    Blitzen on Riots or Tanko, complementing a Combi Rifle or SMG the Blitzen has massively increased range for very little extra cost and 0 SWC. It offers these troopers the option of targets of opportunity AROs they would otherwise not be able to compete with. Again, if you stick this on the correct target (HI or a TAG) it will be as good as dead, but if you stick it on the wrong target (Knauf or Intruder) you'll have removed an order but preserved the threat to your soldiers.
    The dubious one is E/Mitter which typically increases cost while not providing additional range bands, leading to it being mostly an ARO weapon only.

    While E/M is a very interesting ammunition, there is a very, very, massive difference between what it does to one kind of target versus the other.

    The same is not true for adhesive, where value is the only concern (Tarik and Su-Jian are equally negatively affected). However, both ammo provides a solution to the problem of how high-cost, low-model, lists are dominating most metas... oh wait... they don't.
     
  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I don't think that they aren't dominating for the reason they are better. For what I've read so far, 10 orders lists were common in N2 and at the beginning of N3 until ITS scenarios asked for insane spam specialists and orders just in order to have a chance to score 10 objective points. CB has moved from this silly situation since HSN3 came out but lots of players haven't moved. And since the vast majority of players hammers to new comers that 16 orders lists are better than 10 orders ones, I don't see why this should change.

    I myself find using 2 groups lists very frustrating and I'm forcing those days to learn how to play them in order to be less predictable and have a better knowledge of the game but really, I don't see why it is so lovely to field a list with 85% of the troopers who can be killed so easily while at the same time, a single flash pulse crit at turn 1 stops your offensive and cripples your whole game because you can't move your objective grabbers or claim some field outside of your DZ without fearing that, now, average infiltrators can change in awful ARO troops just because they don't have to fear your main attack piece anymore.

    I had a game where a Ghulam ML in FT nearly locked down my whole list because Joan got flashed and my Nisse was unconscious and unrecoverable until said Ghulam was down. Luckily, my KotHS combi+LGL managed to take it down at bad range with his combi but it was a risky move. Would I have played a 10 orders list with an Aquila/Swiss Guard/ORC HMG instead of the bunch of useless Fugazis and Auxilias I had, this ML would never make me sweat to begin with. And even then, any little attack piece like a Bashi Bazouk SMG was frightening because I couldn't actively occupy that much grounds with my units just in order to preserve my order pool. A situation I never feared when deploying 5 HIs with support in a one group list.
     
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  6. SpectralOwl

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    It's also worth considering the support available for HI in each faction. Improved Doctors, Engineers, Hackers, hardier or cheaper Order generation, DZ guards, command options and pieces that can resist common HI bugbears make the class much more effective even before the game starts. Even just out of the factions I play, there's clear disparity; Vanilla Yu Jing is quite vulnerable due to very poor quantity and quality of Doctors, bad Hacking game and lack of anything that can take Isolation in stride, but Bakunin is rarely challenged with a Hacking-heavy list out of fear of Nomad dominance, though it has problems handling Smoke and E/M aside from throwing Morlocks at it. NCA, despite featuring the "irredeemable" ORC as its flagship mass HI, is actually what I feel most comfortable running lots of HI in thanks to its resilient defenses and Order supply with Bolts and Auxilia, fair Hacking and Wildcard bonus Doctor. Bolts in particular are great because they excel at everything HI have problems dealing with and then some, and one of them even has Chain of Command which allows for an aggressive HI Lieutenant, something which really helps make up for the cost.
     
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  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    IMO these are the two most salient and easy to implement points in this thread. Whenever we do get a general re-balancing of points, tweaking the formula to make ARM 3 and 4 cheaper on less-optimized HI in specific would be good. LI and MI don't really need the change, and neither do the highly optimized HI, so pricing ARM lower for them doesn't make sense... but the lower-ARM generic HI could definitely use the tweak.
     
    #307 Savnock, Jul 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Why would even need Fersen with a Santiago in a link ? Its almost always better just to throw a 2nd Santiago (be it another KHD or better cheap Sptifire) than a Fersen.

    The only point of Fersen in Hospitaller Haris is to have cheap OS to make this link semi-cheap while still not having tools to get out of DZ.

    (I understand the point of Fersen + Tinbot but Fersen is so expensvie and bring so little special tools that its better just to take 2nd Santiago with a Spitfire than much more expensive Fersen (and still enjoy 3rd specialist))
     
  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Also that Frenzy discount has got to get halved, as well as the excellent rules changes you guys mentioned (Frenzy kicking in right away, and no cover for Frenzied links).
     
  10. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Two Hackers of differing types in a link is normally a disadvantage, but De Fersen's ability to declare Trinity means two decent hacking program AROs from well-protected troops. I would consider taking on a KHD even with a Tinbot with my own KHD in my active, but two of them? Nope.
     
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  11. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Pretty much this plus the Spitfire. And AHD is really annoying when your opponent loves to rely on REMs/HIs and TAGs. And De Fersen can make some classified a KHD can't and would request to bring a FO. AP+Shock is alsor really handy against midfield operators and save orders to get Predator.
     
  12. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    Had an idea discussing IMM2 today - how about changing how IMM works across the board?

    IMM1 - MOV becomes 2-2. Normal Reset to clear. ARO at -3, can act normal on Active Turn.

    IMM2 - MOV becomes 2-2. Engineer to clear. ARO at -6, can act at -3 on Active Turn.

    Additionally, for Isolation and E/M in general, as much as I'm sure people don't want more things to track I think adding more E/M sensitive gear while toning down the impact of Isolation would go a long way in keeping E/M ammo relevant and useful but not so useful that people cling to profiles like Emily or lots of E/M templates as a one-trick pony. So MSV1, X Visors, Hacking Devices, etc. go inactive until fixed and Isolation just turns the order Irregular until fixed and removes it from its current fireteam (if any) with none of this "group of 1" nonsense.
     
  13. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    The last thing this game needs is even more rules, exceptions and particularities
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    OK, thanks for the clarification!


    Well, LI and MI are already not (generally) paying much for ARM because they don't have much ARM to begin with. Probably wouldn't manage to change LI/MI price at all.


    I dunno, that's not particularly "Immobilized" if you can still move and act and ARO.

    I think I would rather have the version we have now.


    In N2, each piece of gear had an "EM Vulnerable?" stat. If you got EMP'd in N2, your combirifle stopped working. That was a bit too much work to keep track of!

    I'd rather have ISO1 and ISO2 states, where ISO1 can be cleared by Reset and ISO2 requires an Engineer.


    While I generally agree, Immobilized already has two states.
     
  15. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    I mean I agree, but if the complaint is models being purely bricked by E/M this is a way to solve it while still making it effective at combatting high-tech equipment. Like I don't particularly picture this as completely bricking the gear, but rather shutting off enough components that make quality of life worse. Might be a good middle ground is make it like an HI-specific version of Stunned (Blind? Whatever that state is called now) so no attacks, everything else at -3 and a worse MOV to represent the armor's "power" element not working anymore so you have to lug it around.

    Or, in the sake of keeping things simple just make IMM2 require a reset at a penalty. Alternatively make E/M only IMM1, and reserve IMM2 for the glue guns that require outside help to clear. Dunno. Just spitballing, honestly.

    This is a good way of making it streamlined without making it a death sentence for models. I like this.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Conceptually it would still represent the power armor being shut down; just in that case the user still has some (limited) ability to act under their own power, rather than being completely frozen in place. It would probably need to be renamed to something other than “Immobilized”, but that’s not a huge hurdle.

    I’m not sure I’m 100% behind this one, but I like that kind of outside the box brainstorming.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except you know they'd make Jammers cause ISO2.
     
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  18. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    I don't see this as a problem, really. If jammers caused ISO2 and E/M caused ISO1 it would be a Nerf to E/M not a buff to Jammers.

    But back on the topic of Heavy Infantry, I also don't like the idea of adding more rules to the game to make generic HI more interesting. I really think playing around with their weapon loadouts and cost is probably the best solution. A lot of people mentioned how some of the generic dudes have profiles that are still worth taking, and I think that is the kind of solution that's much more workable than reworking the cost of armor entirely.

    Although I'd also like if CB stopped acting like there's this ultra perfect points formula and started admitting they hand tweak profiles (and if they don't actually hand tweak, then it might be a good idea to start).
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If I had a choice between what to nerf against LI, MI, etc, it wouldn't be E/M, it would be Jammers. I would much rather the point formula got tweaked so that you'd have to bring hacking and E/M to level the playing field against HI and TAGs than for the playing field to be even without such tools, or that a tool was made so that the Hackable trait could be beneficial than strictly detrimental similar to how the REM trait is beneficial enough to offset the Hackable nature of remotes.
     
  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Yes to all of this!

    Jammers absolutely, positively need a nerf anyways (they shouldn't get Intuitive Attack, or it should be a separate bit of gear).

    And really good point about Hackable needing a positive to offset the major liabilities (and apparently zero cost reduction) that it carries.

    So what should/could those positive things that come with Hackable be?

    A serious discount on the cost of ARM would make sense.
     
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