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Smoke - Going downward ?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Arkhos94, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    The question comes from here https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/dazer-and-super-jump.33932/page-2 but feels important enough to have an independant thread

    So, basically, can a smoke go donward ?

    Situation A : I throw a smoke on the corner of the building roof. Said roof has no edge and the center of my template is perfectly placed on the corner. My intruder is under the template (on the ground) and can trace an trace an unobstructed LoF to the center of the smoke template. Is he smoked ?

    My own opinion is the answer is yes because I tick all the boxes :
    - I'm under the smoke template
    - I can trace an unobstructed LoF to its center

    Did I miss something in the rules that make this impossible ?
     
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  2. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
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    Short answer: no - it cannot go down in this situation.
    Search the forum. This comes up very quite often.

    Long answer. In order to let the smoke go down, or in any angle the impact focus would have to be placed (in infinite zoom) in the air an atom lengh next to roof. Since you need to put in on the roof - the roof will block the LoF down.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I stand by IJW's interpretation that you should still need to target a 3x3mm area. (And my own special interpretation which states that there exists no physical surface where a blast focus has more than 180° LOF which means that it's not interesting to discuss the theoretical sub-molecular perfect corner, but for sake of simplicity we assume that at least the surface can be approximately flat providing a tangent)
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Fundamentally it's a question of precision.

    The blast focus is a point on the table (this is a point immediately superjacent to the table). Table is understood to mean 'any flat surface'. If the blast focus is placed on the precise edge of a building's roof then you can draw LOF to points below the plane of that building's roof.

    In 2D, if the corner of the roof is at position 1,1 (using cartesian coordinates) then the smoke is in position (1+1/Infinity), 1. That is infesstimaly above the plane of the roof and therefore visible from a position at say 0,2.

    To do this you need a meta that allows an extreme degree of precision so you can say "I target that 3mm X 3mm area adjacent to edge of the roof and place the Blast Focus on the absolute edge of the roof." Basically it restricts it to metas that allow perfect intent.

    In metas that don't allow perfect intent, the precision required to get the smoke on the actual edge of the roof is practically unachievable.

    @ijw has stated that he suggests that the centre of a 3mm X 3mm area be used as the Blast Focus but this isn't supported by the rules at all. There is no reason that any area on the table within that 3mmx3mm box can't be used, not just the centre. He is essentially arguing that the nearest to he edge of the roof you can place a Blast Focus is 1.5mm.

    It's also worth mentioning that the 3mm X 3mm target for Targetless attacks isn't formalised in the rules either.

    Tl;dr with perfect intent, yes; without, no.

    Aside: the related question of whether you can throw smoke up onto a roof is clear. You can't, because you can't see the roof from below (just the point infitessimally above the roof).
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The answer depends on how you want to play:
    This is the RAWest answer.

    In this case you have an oficial rulling about how you could play it (if your meta/TO agrees), but that's not supported by the RAW/FAQs right now.
    EDIT: 3X3 mm also supported by the rules

    The smoke rules could use a rewrite/extra line tho, tying LoF to the mechanic of a gas isn't going to give realistic behaviour in game. From the top of my head, a way to rule this:
    • Smoke Special Ammunition generates a Zero Visibility Zone (see: Special Terrain, Visibility Conditions) the size of a Circular Template and with infinite height. (standard rule)
    • Any point of the table and model inside the template will get affected by the ZVZ regardless of LoF to the blast focus, unless there is no way to trace the trajectory to that point inside the template. (extra rule)
    With this extra line the shenanigans of needing to throw the smoke right in the border of the building would be gone. The smoke would become a pseudo-"ZoC" effect (refering to the blast focus) that would only be blocked if there is no way to physically get there.
    In this case if the blast point is right in the bottom of a building the part of the roof covered by the template would be affected (and if there are windows or doors, also the interior of that building covered by the template).
     
    #5 Ogid, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Targetless attacks still require LoF rules, and the LoF rules require seeing a 3x3mm part of the target. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that's not formalised?

    And a reminder - my opinion is that perfect intent is purely a player construct, which is not supported by the rules. Obviously that means that I am never going to make rules judgements that rely on perfect intent.
     
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  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Let's see a hypothetical case, supposing that players don't allow perfect intent.

    There is a roof railing with a width of 5mm, a player decide to throw a smoke grenade into that railling (I guess that if he isn't above the railling he wouldn't be able to see the target point and he must use speculative fire). That players chooses a point, that point is measured and is 1 mm from 1 border and 4mm to the other.
    is the attack canceled as when centering the 3x3mm target area, 0,5 mm are in the air? Or is the target area ajusted around that point so that player may place the blast focus just in the border?
    I guess the blast focus being in the border would make no difference. The blast focus doesn't have any vertical volumen, so it wouldn't be able to trace LoF to points under.

    Let's imagine now that the blast focus is in that railling (allowing perfect intent in the inside border of that railling), the railling height is higher than a base. In this case I guess that two prone troopers in that roof would be able to trace LoF with each other; but if one of them is not prone then none can trace LoF.
    EDIT: I have just checked, I also missed the 3x3 mm requirement in targeteless :/
     
    #7 Ogid, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Mental blank, for some reason I was thinking the 3mm X 3mm applied to troopers not targets and it was just extended in practice. But yeah, it's targets. The point that there's no requirement for the blast focus to be the centre of the 3mm X 3mm area exists. My bad.

    My position is that all degrees of intent (including 'no' intent) are player constructs and basically all unsupported by the rules (which is why intent debates are unresolvable). I'm simply pointing out that it's true for some metas and not others because whether it's true or not is an emergent property of where you sit on the intent debate.

    That is I'm arguing that we play this differently because we play intent differently. Anyone who plays intent the same way as you will play this the same way as you. It's a function of how much precision you allow to be described verbally rather than demonstrated physically.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So, the argument with perfect intent is that the point of the blast focus is infesstimaly above the plane of the railing (IE it is 'on' the railing rather 'in' the railing). Which means that a line, unobstructed by the railing, can be drawn between it and a point below the plane of the railing.

    IE you can draw a line between the points (1+1/Infinity),1 and 0,2 without passing through point 1,1.
     
  10. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    This I aggree on, it means you need to see 3x3mm of the roof to be able to throw a smoke at it

    It doesn't mean the center of the impact template is 3x3mm with roughly 0 mm thickness.


    Thinking more of it, I think the question comes to that. How thick is the center of a template (from which you will trace LoF to know if you are smoked or not) ? 2 players box are cardboard so roughly 1mm thickness but most plastic template are roughly the same thickness as a base.


    If it is 0.00x mm like a cardboard template, I would agree it's impossible to trace a LoF from the center of the template to the ground, no matter how well placed it is


    If it is the same thickness as MAS impact marker or the same thickness as a base, then it's easily possible to place your template in a way that you can trace a LoF to the ground (as long as you use the good tools : impact marker, clear plastic template...).
    Here, it's basically the same as a prone trooper on the edge of a roof (who has LoF even right above him, or at least geometry says so)
     
    #10 Arkhos94, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter how thick the template is. Even if it is infesstimaly thin it's still possible to draw a line from a point immediately superjacent a corner to an object below it
     
  12. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Rules request you to use a horizontal surface. Horizontal surface can't be a corner (because it is also a vertical one, which is forbidden), so, no, because of this, you can't have your smoke going downward.
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    It's an extrapolation of Circular Templates being placed over the centre of the target.

    As far as gameplay is concerned, it avoids absurdities like placing a Smoke Grenade on the edge of a 20" high tower block to hide someone at ground level.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    But the smoke template placed at the bottom of the 20" high building concealing the person on top isn't just as absurd?
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You do realise that you've arguing that a model Prone on a roof in B2B with the edge isn't allowed to be there?
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I find it much less absurd.

    No, he isn't. Having a non-point object on the top surface and touching the edge is different from a point that is on the edge, and is therefore not on either surface.
     
  17. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    As much as I know, troopers and tokens are allowed to touch vertical surfaces (as you could never partial cover if not). But you can't aim a corner for throwing a grenade as you need to aim a point belonging to a horizontal surface only.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Both the prone trooper and the blast focus occupy the same space (immediately superjacent to the edge of the roof).

    That is, both the trooper and Blast Focus occupy the position (1+1/Infinity), 1. Where the roof terminates at 1,1.

    Either it's 'the table' and a horizontal surface or the trooper was unable to Move there and is Climbing. I'm going with option A.
     
    #18 inane.imp, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Both are at, using your terms, (1+1/inf,1+1/inf), meaning there is no discernable space below the blast focus, either, making a downward LOF impossible as well. And a reminder, that surface is flat.

    Btw, it is pointless to chase such precision for a prone model since there is no practical difference between (1.0001,1) and (1.5,1) for the prone model and reasonably detailed coordinates.

    (And you still kind of need to prove the positioning is valid physically as well...)
     
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  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure only the impact center need to be on an horizontal surface, not the whole template. So yes, I can throw a smoke on the corner of a roof.
     
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