I don't recall any Yujing Medium infantry oriented towards CC And counting Pheasant on the mix is lame on some degree
The biggest difference is the levels of CC. JSA and Steel Phalanx definitely rule the game of CC, but YJ has 4 units with MA3+ (the point where it actually starts to matter), compared to 2 in PanO, 3 in Haaq, 2 in Nomads, 3 in CA, and just 1 in Tohaa. I understand this metric is kind of artificial, but YJ has the warband that is the best at CC, point for point, as well as some of the best high-cost CC specialists. It's kind of like the debate between MSV2 in YJ and PanO. Yes, PanO has significantly greater access to MSV2. But aside from the Nisse and linked Kamau, it's all very meh, whereas YJ has two incredibly good active turn MSV2 options and one very good linked reactive option.
No, I think what they mean is that Yu Jing keeps getting a point of CC or two higher on comparable profiles all the time. The profiles with Martial Arts are outliers.
Agreed. Way back in the day (where's the Old Man/Get off my lawn emoji?), many YJ profiles were literally PanO profiles with -1BS and +1CC/+1WIP. Yu Jing is still like that, +1CC over the equivalent PanO or Nomad LI, the good-at-CC profiles are +3 or so over their PanO nearest equivalent (If that).
maybe the problem doesnt lie in the +1 CC but in the Close Combat ruling. If they would change it that higher B in CC is possible and "normal" i would gladly pay points!something like heavy weapons do more dmg with less burst lets say a 2 handed weapon gets 5 dmg + ph with a B1, a sword gets 2 dmg +ph with B 2 and a knife gets -1 dmg +ph and B 3/4. Just a thought.. Would make CC more viable
It's not a melee game, but it would be nice if the value of CC was aligned with the value you are charged for. CC 14 is better than CC 13, but it's no where near as good as BS 12 compared to BS 11, yet the comparative asking price is the same. (And if you're one of the ones who think this is fine, then you should have no problems agreeing that this is actually a disadvantage and not an advantage)
The problem with increasing burst is that it also increase the number of hits/wounds you can inflict to the target. I mean a B1/PH+5 does not compete vs a B2/PH+2 imho (baring ammo type, and maybe that's what you need instead of PH+5 damage - make the huge ax B1 Explosive, and all other smaller weapons B2-3 normal or AP).
I still maintain that CC ought to have a default burst of 2 when using non-improvised weapons, and CC values to range between 8 (REMs) to 17 (Miyamoto)
I can't remember actually I gave up a long time ago trying to do CC with them. The thing, again, about the higher than average CC score means almost nothing when it's hardly used. Here in order is about where I place from highest to lowest the profiles used. If you want a survey, we can do it. BS ARM/BTS Wounds Move WIP PH Size (For checking LoS mostly) Availablity (Comes more into play than CC) CC I will say though I did get McMurder into CC the other day against a Skiavoro. So once in a game.
My monks do get the opportunity to see melee on a fairly regular basis. It's not a planned thing but sometimes opportunities will arise. It's normally off the back of having a combat group like this: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 4 8 SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 0.5 SWC | 53 Points If I notice there's a potential path to something important, like a LT, the Monk that's got the run gets pulled from this group into the 1st combat group. Then the second group expends its orders doing alot of smoke prep/triggering mines/suiciding chain rifles into stuff to open the way. After that the first group's monk takes the run and kills the target. I got a run on an Interventor LT the other day doing that and it basically won me the game sending the opponent into LoL on the third turn of Engineering Deck which was basically game over at that point.
I know what you mean, but fluffwise we have many and gamewise we can have two at the same time -though both are the same layout. There is none. Overall the articel lacks some enthausiasm, pays no attention to the changed fluff and is a little bit unpreciese about the CC thing. YJ could use a MA4 unit. Some top tier CC specialist Kung Fu fighter, maybe a character monk. And a new bike ;-)
You're one of the few. I think i've tried similar but again, been a long time since i've even tried. Gotten more out of them trhowing smoke on MSV2 guys
Their primary jobs are tossing smoke and chain rifling stuff, I don't add them to the list specifically the fight things in CC but sometimes the game plays out that you can engineer a run on something important from a monk that just happens to still be alive in the middle of the table on turn two.
I killed a ryuken with a warcor knife the other day. CC can happen, probably once or twice a game, and more if its a faction that excels at it. It's an effective skill for dealing with high BS mod suppression models. Yu Jing have enough models across the list that your typical yu Jing list will have CC as a viable tool to solve a problem. Other factions won't always. It doesn't mean I want to pay 1 pt for ZHANSHI to be cc 14 though
I think you might be surprised about how often PH comes into play. How often do you declare Dodge AROs? PH tests for Climbing or Jump? (Nevermind damage in CC). I also rate Wounds as being more important than ARM. Probably 'used' less often, but more important since >1W means you can make a mistake (or eat a surprise crit) and keep going. But yes, CC is not used very often. Not even JSA really throw down with CC very often, and they're about the most likely to try to make use of it! (Steel Phalanx might be better able to get into CC due to more smoke) I still think that the 1pt difference between Fusiliers/Alguacilss and Zanshi is more like a 0.1-0.2pt difference. Just enough to bump the cost enough that it gets rounded up to 11pts instead of down to 10pts. Example: Fusiliers/Alguaciles actually cost 10.4pts and Zanshi cost 10.5 or 10.6pts, which gets rounded down to 10pts for Fusies/Auggies and up to 11pts for Zanshi.
Uh there are no PH tests for jump or climbing? Not in the current edition anyway. PH gets used for Dodge (change facing), Throwing Weapons, Medikits, Adhesive Ammo saves, and CC damage. They're not super commonly used unless the trooper is specialised towards needing it frequently like throwing smoke grenades.
But still CC is the least used thing in the game and yet we pay a lot for it. It’s even worse when it’s on a figure that’s not able to get into CC easily.
Agreed that CC is (still) grossly overcosted. Maybe not as much as ARM is, but it is definitely overcosted. CC is much better than it was in N2, you can actually do something in CC now. (For lots of fun, agree to take no SWC-costing weapons and all the CC profiles, say, JSA versus Greeks)
A friend of mine once wrote an article in N2 that went into great detail of how to evaluate and use models in CC. It still holds true in N3 that one of the most important factors to make a good CC unit is the ability to get into melee range. A model with nothing but CC25 and an EXP ccw is still garbage unless they have something like smoke, camo, infiltation, impersonation, ODD or even just 2W in a pinch.
