What you call destructive, I call objective and without bias. I don't worry about what I, you, or the community thinks is the most valid or playable interpretation. I read and do what the RAW tell me to do first and foremost. When I arrive at conflicts, I'll decide how to play it. If I wanted to know how the community has decided to play it, I'd ask that specifically. But now, and often on these forums, I'm sharing my opinion on what the rules say. Because If I've made an error or missed something I hope someone here can point that out. People respond and we have a debate. I'll spare you my opinions on how these debates go. I'm even willing to concede points like, the effect to Dodge attacks must require a FTF roll. Because looking at the rule I can meet that requirement and still follow the Berserk Attack rules to TURN that FTF roll into a Normal roll. It's not my fault the game breaks at this point. I'm certainly not trying to be destructive. I'm like the paid thief testing your security so the system can be improved. I've heard no arguments to show that by turning a roll into another roll, we must retroactively negate the roll because the original rolls requirements are now no longer met.
What if Total Immunity turning Special Ammo into Normal Ammo meant a Missile Launcher attack is completely negated because the weapon doesn't have normal ammo to begin with? That's crazy right? So we all decide to continue the attack using normal ammo. Shouldn't we continue the Dodge FTF roll as if it were a Dodge Normal roll?
I don't understand how you're coming to your conclusions then. I see this happening: Trooper X is trying to Dodge trooper Y's Attack. This is a FTF roll. Applying Berserk Attack's effect, this FTF roll is now a Normal roll. Dodging the attack was originally dependent on winning that FTF roll. Now it's dependent on success with a Normal Roll.
First and foremost, please keep in mind the http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence Second of all, what a player expects will happen during step 4 when they typically declare ARO, isn't necessarily what will happen due to what step 5 brings. Third, whether the Dodge is a Face to Face or not is determined at step 7, after both players have declared all of their AROs. Now, Natural Born Warrior can retroactively make a Martial Arts or Berserk effects completely invalid, because the skill specifically says it does, but Berserk doesn't do that - Berserk only changes the condition on which Dodge applies. If Natural Born Warrior is like someone preventing you from jumping into a canoe, then Berserk is like someone pulling the canoe out from beneath you while you're jumping. Neither prevents you from shouting "Yeronimoeee!" and rushing down the quay. (Keep in mind both those examples are flawed and mostly for jest.)
Dodging the CC Attack was contingent on it being a FtF roll. That’s the only part taken away when Berserk is used. The Dodge roll can no longer negate the CC Attack, owing to Berserk’s special rule. However, the movement of up to 2 inches is still available, but Dodging the attack itself isn’t.
Here lies your misunterstanding : you are mixing declaration and resolution. This is the correct sequence a Highlander is the active trooper, a line kazak the reactive. Both at LoF to the other 1. Highlander expand an order 2. First action : Highlander declare move and reach base to base with line kazak 3. ARO : line kazak declare the ARO dodge 4. Second action : Highlander declare the use of CC attack 5. Resolution : a) Highlander declare the use of Berserk, final modifier is 0 for the line Kazak and + 6 for Highlander b) Dice are rolled, Highlander rolls a 18 (crit), Line Kazak rolls 10 (success because lower than the kazak PH value) 6. Effect (simultaneous) : a) Dodge effect : Rolls are not face to face due to berserk effect, therefore dodge doesn't allow to avoid damage. Dodge is a still a sucess so Line Kazak can move 2 inches b) CC attack effect : Highlander rolls was a critical sucess, the Line Kazak take a wound, ending unconscious Relevant rules Spoiler Dodge rules http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Dodge Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks. In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches. Berserk rules http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Berserk Berserk Attack : Turns the Face to Face Roll into a Normal Roll. Both troopers make a Normal Roll, instead of the usual Face to Face Roll. Whoever declares an Attack and passes their Normal Roll forces the enemy to make an ARM Roll, and as a result both combatants may suffer Damage. Normal rolls definition of sucess http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Normal_Rolls To make a Normal Roll and find out if a troop is successful when performing a Skill, simply roll one d20 and compare the result against the relevant Attribute of the troop performing the action. If the result on the die is equal to or lower than the Attribute, the Skill is successful, and the troop achieves its goal.
A little off topic but I really hate this idea of the simultaneous nature of an order. Because it's actually impossible to implement. No matter how simultaneous they make it appear, It is in fact a sequence of events that can be represented as a step by step procedure. And somewhere along those lines, it should explain this interaction, or reveal the procedures flaws. Thanks, you two have made something clear to me now. I've been looking at the Berserk Attack EFFECTS as something to be applied during the Effects phase of the OES. But the rules for Berserk Attack are actually within a CC Chart and everything in the CC chart is a MOD. So those MODs are applied in the Resolution phase. So I agree the Dodging trooper is making a Normal roll before applying any of the effects of Dodge. Unfortunately from that new perspective... I'm left with two players making successful rolls now. But the rules don't explain at all how a Normal roll Dodge works against a normal roll CC Attack or anything for that matter. How did I even make a normal Dodge roll in the first place? If I eliminate any effects based on a FTF roll, what am I left with? Is that even the right way to approach this? This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...). Should I negate ALL effects of a Dodge? A 'successful roll' is clearly referring to the FTF roll and not the Normal roll I made earlier. So I don't think I've met the requirements for a successful roll. Thus I can't disengage. Or should I just replace the term 'FTF roll' in ALL effects with a 'Normal roll'? But that carries it's own issues.
Because it DOESN'T work. They are Normal Rolls. Please, remember that when you declare a Dodge, you must specify where you will move if successful. Read it again, when you declare it. Berserker win his roll? He strikes a hit. Dodging win his roll? He moves. He did not evade because it is a prerogative of FtF rolls.
I still don't read the rule that way. There's alot about this interaction that makes no sense to me. Here's one effect from Dodge: In the Reactive Turn, the Dodge Roll is compared to all Burst (B) attacks from all active enemies. For example, a reactive trooper could Dodge with a single Roll several shots from enemies using a Coordinated Order or all Close Combat attacks. How is this interpreted? If you're saying a successful normal roll allows me to move/disengage, why doesn't a successful roll activate the effect above? Doesn't that Dodge effect allow me to Dodge the Berserk Attack?
No, because there that Dodge roll is being compared to several other rolls, going FtF with all of them. In the case of a Berserk CC attack, there is no FtF, so you don't have the ability to cancel anything out. The Berserker succeeds or not, you succeed or not on Normal rolls, and don't affect each others' rolls a whit.
I see far too many liberties taken in the application of these rules. Berserk Attack: "Whoever declares an Attack and passes their Normal Roll forces the enemy to make an ARM Roll, and as a result both combatants may suffer Damage." The use of ARM or BTS rolls are completely interchangeable and aren't held as requirements. So why should I assume FTF and Normal rolls don't function in a similar way? How everyone chooses to apply a Normal roll Dodge to a Dodge skill that describes itself only as a FTF roll seems completely arbitrary to me. I don't see any structure being followed. @Mahtamori & @Arkhos94 can you explain this to me using a similar method to one using the OES?
Yes... Now what die roll must you make for a successful Dodge? In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches. Isn't it a Face to Face roll? I don't see how anyone can claim any of the effects during a Dodge are not based on FTF rolls. Yet there are many here stating what works and what doesn't during a normal roll. The only instructions on how to pass the Dodge roll is found in a rule stating its a FTF roll. This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...). So this rule is permitted to be followed as a normal roll, but this one below isn't? Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks. Why?
Yes, in the Dodge rule. There are other instructions embedded in the template rules and examples that tell you that you can also dodge those templates on passing a PH roll. Since those templates do not have a roll themselves, it's obvious this is a normal roll. There is no such language in the Berserk rule. From all of this, it is clear that "evading attacks" requires winning a F2F roll (as per the dodge rule effects) or passing a PH roll against a template (if there was no opposing roll to make it a F2F, a la Intuitive Attack). Moving in the reactive turn only requires a "successful dodge" which can come about as either a F2F or a normal roll. However, there is no language to suggest that a normal roll dodge has to "evade an attack" in order to benefit from the move.
