So after my self-imposed banning from Infinity for One Year, it's time to make my way back into the fold. Lots has changed and I've got some catching up to do. So after years of playing 2 combat group lists, I've decided to shake some things up and go low count. Yu-Jing Invincible Army seems the way to go for me! (No offense to you Steel Phalanx boy/girls). I'm liking the NCO rule and figured I'd try out the Tai Sheng Harris with Tac Awareness guys. Adding the L2 would give me the 8 sweet orders I need to get the pain train rolling with these guys. An obvious use is the "beatstick" method, but what other ways would you use this team? Is that they ONLY use for them? I'm not caught up yet on the new season 10 missions pack, so I'm needing some advice from you Vets out there. Glad to be back...I really missed this community.
Zuyong and Shang-Ji are pretty much beatsticks and good at it. If you're looking fot roles outside that, you could make an infoSec group out of a Haris + Shang-Ji AHD + Haidao KHD (just remember that they one will get kicked out of the team if they declare different hacking programs in ARO). I wouldn't stick Tai Sheng in such a group, though, since they don't tend to need NCO.
I'd be interested to know ways to use Tai Sheng apart from in a core Zuyong firearm. Also which profile seems the most useful. I'm thinking MK12 with CoC but my knowledge is seriously basic.
Oddly enough, I don't usually build a list with the Chain of Command versions, CoC just isn't necessary. If you're running a Daoying hacker LT, it's probably hiding under camo someplace (Fairy Dust, then recamo every turn), and not very vulnerable to assassination runs. My usual build runs a Zuyong Core like this: Invincible Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 39) HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Obviously, you could swap the baggagebot for the 8pt repeaterbot, depending on what you want to use it for. The real challenge is which Haidao to put into the team. You can only choose one to have in each Link Team; so do you take the KHD and dare someone to try to hack your Core team (usually at -9 between Redrum and Deflector L2, maybe -12 because of Fairy Dust), do you take the MSV Sniper for those times your TA HMG can't deal with a problem, or do you put the Engineer in the team? I lean towards KHD in the team and Engineer outside (so it can have a helperbot), obviously, but I think it was @Mahtamori who pointed out that an MSV2 Sniper in a link team is pretty dang good. I'm not sure it's 'replace the KHD' good, but I suspect it depends on how aggressively you move forward with that link team. If you did put the MSV2 MSR in there, I'd probably use the Breaker Rifle version of Tai Sheng (a Mk12 is a no-SWC sniper rifle in my mind). Anyway, the question was more 'Which Haris?' And I can't see a place I'd want to put Tai Sheng into a Haris. Sure, it adds 2 orders to the Haris (assuming LT2), but you'd be looking at a 117|1.5 Haris that can only shoot the crap out of things, and a Core does that better. Tai Sheng doesn't have Haris, so you lose a space in the team for someone with Haris. The 'Information Warfare' Haris (Zuyong Haris, Shang Ji AHD, and Haidao KHD) seems like a decent surprise option, though.
@Section9 it is my experience that unless I'm facing a list that is intentionally skewed towards hacking, an MSV2 sniper does more work than the KHD would, because the sniper can engage targets a Zuyong HMG struggles with. The worst thing a fireteam with a KHD can face is a TO sniper, TO missile or TO HMG. Particularly of the Swiss inclination. A single (Assault) Hacker on the other hand can be worked around using Zhencha, Louies, Cautious Movement, or simply ignoring it until you get to the angle where you can shoot it. It's going to be somewhat order intensive, but it's going to be a lot safer than trying to face to face an Assisted Fire Dakini sniper with a HMG.
If you are going to use the haidao engineer outside the link with a helperbot, why not save some points and go for the mech-engineer? Re: MSR vs KHD, you could also start with the MSR in the link and then when you are ready to move out, reform the link with the KHD who was waiting close by
Depends on the meta I guess. When I played the German Satalite Event, the CoC became relevant in 3/5 of my games. The Daoying is simply such an obvious Lt. that people will gladly dedicate ressources get rid of her. Also, she's not really that safe against threaths like Fiday, as they have anything between WIP 14-15 to succeed a Discover and will, due to their nature, often be within the +3 rangeband. Spoiler: The list used for anyone wondering... List 1 Meme-Dream ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 TAI SHENG (Chain of Command) Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17) DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) YĀN HUǑ 2 Missile Launchers + TinBot C (Neurocinetics) / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 56) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army List 2 Meme-Team ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 TAI SHENG (Chain of Command) Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37) SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17) PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
I find if you park a bunch of monks and shit around the problem tends to go away. Too many orders to chew through the warbands to get to her. Definitely more problematic for IA to work with though.
Theoretically you can buy two Daoying and if one of them is a sniper you get even more tokens for your shell game. I haven't had much success with my Daoying Snipers, but that might be my meta never leaving any targets out for a mimetism sniper to get a 1-up on. Or the dice just hates me for using them. Problem is, with the high cost of IA units (specifically how both Zuyong and Shang-Ji are above the limited insertion equilibrium point*) it's hard to build a list with multiple Daoying. * there is merit in what @Section9 writes about budget Zuyong, even if I don't think NWI makes sense neither in gameplay nor as an effort to make them cheaper.
Indeed. I also think it's due to the fact that there's such a big incentive to go for the Lt. in IA, due to how potentially disruptive it is to not only enter LoL but rob him of NCO synergy.
On the other hand you could just start taking multiple Daoying and play Who's the LT. It's not like the MSR is a bad option for deleting TR bots and it comes with minelayer for no extra SWC.
Yeah.. I mean.. you're not wrong there but if I would ever take multiple of anything in IA, it would be multiple Zhenchas.
Fair point, I may be paranoid about AHDs. I'd probably need to find a new model to stick into the Core Team. You've seen my standard build with Tai Sheng, TA Haris, TA HMG, Haidao, and Shang Ji HRL, and changing the Haidao KHD to MSR puts all my SWC guns into the Core. I always have at least one SWC weapon outside the Core so it can be someplace else. So that everything is in power armor? And it lets me reform a link if I have to, after the helperbot dies. Fair point, but the problem is that everything in IA is so expensive that taking all 3 Haidao is just too expensive. Might be doable if you took the Zanshi Engineer.
I like your list, very similar to what I've been building myself. No DOUBT about the Haidao profile. I've been struggling in my mind if I even want to use him. So you think it's a "NO GO" with Tai Sheng in a Haris altogether?
I don't love using haris teams in general. I feel like they can be a trap with too many points stuck in one place. That being said, I like the idea of this haris: Invincible Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) 2 SWC | 107 Points Open in Infinity Army The tinbot makes the haido a force to be reckoned with. I like using the Shiang Ji haris profile over the Zhuyong because it brings a flamethrower along. The direct template weapon is a nice tool to have for facing down models that stack huge modifiers. Most of them will only be able to do 1 wound back at most, and ignoring the face to face and just setting things on fire is always a great option when you have a second wound to fall back on. You could sub in Tai Sheng over the hmg, but I like hmgs a lot.
I wouldn't say an absolute no go, but I am not seeing a reason to do it right now. This doesn't mean that there is not a reason out there, though! Well, from comparing Haidao KHD BSG to Zuyong BSG (both 26pts), the loss of BTS and trading 2W to 1W+NWI is equal to the cost of a KHD, which we know to be 3pts. So I guess it'd be more like 2pts cheaper if we made Zuyongs 1W+NWI (depends on cost of BTS3, but I don't think it's very expensive since CG are +1WIP and +3BTS over Zanshi and only +2pts). It also makes the point that these are very budget power armor suits, made to be inexpensive enough that you can honestly equip every trooper in the army with one. It's strictly a mathematical thing, I've been concerned about the cost of Zuyong as the Core Link for a long time. Since long before the idea of mixed link teams, in fact. A pure Zuyong Core was running around 150 points, and then you stick in a 125pt Shang Ji Haris. Suddenly you don't have any points left for more HI. So it wasn't much that any profile needed to drop, if we found something that could be applied to all Zuyong profiles. I don't like giving up 2W. But it's identifiably cheap and makes sense with all the rest of the 1W+NWI units that were introduced. It's actually even more pressing now that the auto-include Zuyong have Tactical Awareness, which cost +3/+4pts over an equivalent profile. Not to forget that Tai Sheng is +15 points over a Zuyong Tinbot without TacWare. So your auto-include set went from 99pts to 117!
Say what you want, but I don't want to give up on 2 real wounds, that allow the Zuyong to be healed, for just 2 mere points decrease. Actually a drop in 2 points plus DA CCWs for free is what Hospitaliers got with no reason to justify that other than "let's make cheaper a unit that already cheats in points due to the bad designed interaction between frenzy and fireteams". So I see no reason why Zuyong couldn't drop 2 - 3 points for free too. But I'd rather prefer they used such a drop in points for a rework of the Shang Ji.