It’s not just the +1 bs, which helps just a little. It’s the access the hmgs on most profiles. Being able to strike from the deployment zone with 3-4 solid hitters means that pano can usually punch past an opponent’s defense. Especially when those hmgs can be linked or are on Swiss guards. Unless you’re playing with markers, you can go prone behind an objective, or usually just stand behind them, and remain out of sight. Camo just means you can move-move, so as long as a model can get out of LoF it can arrive safely without taking a hit. Smoke works against most things. Camo and smoke included. Which is why they’re such amazing tools.
again why most people have mentioned the teuton would be an excellent profile for them, since he is present in MO, which has a grand total of 2 hmg profiles. The majority of MO is also relegated to the midfield , the ability to effectively get there is highly valued for this sectorial and depending on table setup you might be down to engaging on bad terms against hard core aros , or spending 5 or more of your 10 orders trying to maneuver around it, if you are even able. the ability to punch through what you want and ignore what you dont is something that a majority of armies in this game have, and something that mo sadly lacks, their answer to everything is...punch
Yeah, in mo on a Teuton, I could see eclipse being awesome. It would help them out. That doesn’t mean PanO needs smoke. MO has a niche role in PanO. They have some of the fire superiority without a pleathora of hmgs. At the same time, they have the Hospitaller hmg, the Seraph, and now the Tikbalang. They hardly allow the flexibility of, say, a fusilier core team, but it helps keep things different between the PanO sectorials.
No problem that cant be solved with the sufficient application of violence. But shaxx would tell you that there are smart applications of violence. "Incinerate them with your light guardian"
With PanO you don't circumvent enemy overwatch troops, you gun them down. This is a superior application of firepower, and PanO do get crazy firepower. Nisse, Swiss, Kamau, ZC, Bulleteers... Big guns with big modifiers and high BS. Apply bullets to face, stroll onto objective. I don't think them getting readily available eclipse smoke would make a lot of difference became they don't really need it.
Problem is that a lot of factions seems to enjoy both. Tell me how much better PanO shooting is than linked Tarik or Sheskin ?
Oh my god will the Fatality L2 thing never end?!?!? Look you ain't got smoke and you ain't got Fatality L2, but you have got loads of other good stuff. Great stuff even.
Sheskiin and Tarik don't invalidate PanO. That's a pretty silly premise. I think the GdA is a pretty sorry platform for smoke, but it does work well. Acon doesn't shoot as well as many of the new Sectorials, but they remain the most flexible way to play PanO. It's fitting that they're the ones who have smoke, along with a pile of other great tools. VIRD and NCA can shoot anyone off the table. No problem there. MO remains the outlier.
I remain confused as to why people love coming into the pano forum to present their idea as to what pano is not allowed to have based on a different faction they play. When i go to jsa forums or yu jing forums, i dont go. Well hsien should be hs 13 because yu jing has cc and bs 14 is a pano thing, and ryuken 9 should not be a thing odd infiltration is clearly a locust thing. There is so much faction bleed over that is ridiculous to say pano shouldnt have eclipse smoke, because the goal posts move every freaking time, first no regular smoke because smoke trick....the very same so many others get to abuse. Then no eclipse smoke because... well just because really, there isnt a rational argument here. Every faction shoots in this game, bs +1 is honky dory, until you meet your nemesis bs -3 and suddenly the lower bs model is effectively 2 bs higher than you for a fraction of the cost.
I had this funny experience of shooting linked Frontovick HRL in his 0 range with KotHS and still being outshot ^^ (11s vs 12s)
Presently, PanOceania seemingly doesn't have smoke for playstyle and identity reasons- heavens knows that they could certainly build them if they wanted in fluff. The problem is that Smoke makes up for bad cover on tables, making PanO a bit more dependent on favourable terrain than others when moving around, and allows for an extremely powerful combination with MSV2+ that relies on negative modifiers, which are inherently stronger than positive BS effects due to the way Infinity is costed. This could be a reasonable tradeoff with PanO's excellent BS and access to shooting-based bonuses, however, due to the advent of mixed links, linkable REMs, Fatality L2, Full Auto and other powerful shooting options in other armies PanOceania is actually starting to fall behind the curve- even the new and mighty Kamau Sniper isn't so hot when it doesn't have a link to hide in. This means that there's a few options to address the imbalance. First off is "Add Smoke". It's easy, but takes away some of PanO's identity as the faction that advances over the bodies of their foes instead of sneaking past like an Ariadnan rat. Second is "Buff PanO Shooting". Which doesn't require much imagination, but could work. Third is "Nerf Everyone Else". Which would be really hard, and tick everybody off, with the possible exception of slightly altering the bonuses of Core Links since they are 9/10ths of the theoretical problem and bother nearly every faction equally. Fourth would be "Get Creative". PanO doesn't do tricks, and everyone else still needs to have fun with shooting, so there would need to be a way for PanO to get around brick wall defenses, especially in MO. The first think that came to mind here is giving Teutons "Berserk L2", which could work on their BS attacks too, but there are any number of ways discussed here and elsewhere to avoid requiring Smoke Grenades to get anything done. tldr; Maybe Smoke isn't for PanO, and wouldn't fit how it plays, but it still needs something to get through some of the sillier ARO setups since it can't avoid them by movement without a favourable terrain set.
Except for those army builds that don't have an HMG. Or, if they do have the option of having an HMG, there are two profiles that carry it (and are competing with specialists for AVA!). Say, Military Orders. That's when you need something other than an HMG to shoot someone off the objective. Something that would let you approach the target without suffering any AROs. Hey, that's smoke. I agree that basic Smoke Grenades would not interact well with PanO's MSV2 and MSV3 troops, which is why I think Eclipse would be the better choice for use in MO (and PanO in general. Oh, so you have MSV2 scopes? That's cool, we have MSV-blocking smoke! Application of tech and equipment, not skills/training)
I'm not sure it's that bad anymore. Currently game is full of examples when other factions outmod PanO and get comfortable numbers when shooting things, leaving us wonder how exactly PanO's shooting is special. There's little solace in having Nisse HMG when traditionally outshot Haqq can shoot their Red Fury up to 40" with basically same odds (just with more misses from both sides) just because their smoke is practically free. And that's if Haqq player even decides to make such shot. vOv It's a bit specific, but while PanO does indeed has cool stuff, overall advantage at shooting is nowhere to be seen, if you ask me.
Eclipse is definitely the solution. From an ITS standpoint, the value of Eclipse (as mentioned) is that it helps offset sparse/subpar terrain setup. If MO received Eclipse, even in a Sectorial-only loadout, it would reinforce MO's viability in a take-all-comers environment. Both Close Combat and Spitfires would feel a lot less costly or redundant, and start to feel a lot more relevant. If you created an Eclipse launcher, it even helps redeem the cost of PanO BS. Charging 1 SWC for an Eclipse Smoke Launcher doesn't seem unreasonable.
