Order 1: a Securitate enters ZoC of a Repeater and has their Repeater disabled by a camouflaged AHD using Blackout. Order 2: Nomad player coordinates the Securitate and a camo marker containing a KHD. Both move inside the Repeater. Does the opponent's hackers get an ARO against the Securitate due to the Disabled Repeater?
That's not the same as not generating an ARO, particularly since we do know gear such as Hacking Devices are still there providing vulnerabilities. For purposes of targetting Blackout, the opponent has to have Comms Equipment, and Disabled doesn't remove this piece of equipment, it only disables is. The question is if for purposes of ARO (and skill targetting) if it's enough there is a piece of comms equipment or does the equipment have to be actually functional?
A Disabled Repeater doesn't stop being Comms Equipment. The requirement to be targetted by Blackout is that the target has equipment with the Comms Equipment trait. See also Unconscious Hackers. I don't see any other way to read the rules. I mean it's dull, but that's what the rules say.
Not when it's done through a Repeater since a Marker doesn't grant the Hacker any Hacking AROs. It would be impossible to use Sixth Sense to delay for this reason as well.
An unconscious hacker though, does not have a disabled hacking device. Disabled makes the equipment, not working.
So what you're saying is that a Hacker with a Disabled Hacking Device stops being a Hacker? <Citation needed> The point is that the rules say that Disabled Comms Equipment can't be used. Not that Disabled Comms Equipment stops being Comms Equipment. The requirements of Blackout is that the target has equipment with the Comms Equipment trait. You can hardly say that a Hacker is 'using' a Kuang Shi Control Device when they target it with Blackout.
No but I am saying a hacker with a disabled hacking device cannot use the hacking device to do any hacking related activities, while the hacking device makes a scavenger a hacker, because of convenience, it is not what makes the hacker selected on the list a hacker. I am not sure where you got the conclusion that the equipment makes the specialist and not the other way around. Now, if you ask if a hacker with a disabled hacking device can be attacked as a hacker by other hackers again yes, he is a hacker regardless of the status of their hacking device and of course he would be more vulnerable since his hacking device is not there to protect him. The hacking device itself though is not functioning.
That's literally the question that's being asked: whether the Repeater is still a valid target to bait out the ARO.
That is not the question been asked because, repeater is an automatic coms equipment, it gets rendered non functioning when it is disabled. Hacker is an automatic skill it does not get rendered non functional when their hacking device a coms equipment gets disabled.
So you're seriously saying that a trooper with a Disabled Repeater isn't a valid target of Blackout but a trooper with a Disabled Hacking Device is?
No I am saying a hacker is a valid target for hacking attacks targeting a hacker regardless of his hacking device state. A hacker with a disabled hacking device cannot be a target of Blackout (assuming of course he does not have, somehow, any other functional coms equiment on him) but is still eligible to be attacked with programs that would affect him like Gotcha! regardless of its hacking device state.
So, you're saying that a Comms Equipment is fully dysfunctional and has no secondary effects when it's Disabled. Except when it does. Sounds very arbitrary, do you have any rules to back this up?
Looking at the definitions of Disabled and Unconscious, it looks like it should go the other way: Disabled says that the equipment “stops working and cannot be used” Unconscious says that “Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment have no effect while Unconscious” If the Repeater skill was going to be ignored, it would be because of Unconscious.
The "troopers with a Hacking Device are still Hackers while Unconcious" works because the class Hacker is applied by virtue of having a Hacking Device, not having a functioning Hacking device. “Operatives equipped with a Hacking Device are called simply Hackers.” It’s because they only need it to be equipped to be Hacker’s that means it still applies the effect while Unc. So an Unc Hacker, I agree, wouldn’t be able to be targeted by Blackout. Honestly though, I’d almost inevitably allow it, because its so much of an edge case that it’ll never come up and allowing it is coherent with allowing attacks that target Hackers. It would be simpler from a Rules coherency POV if the wording for both Unc and Disabled was the same. However it is not, which is why we get different results RAW. Given that the wording is not the same, Storm is basically arguing that if Alice targets Bob (a trooper with Comms Equipment) then Alice ‘uses’ that Comms Equipment. I see no reason that’s justified in the rules. Equally I see no reason that Disabled Comms Equipment stops being Comms Equipment and therefore stops being eligible to be attacked by Blackout. The reason I raised Unconcious Hackers in the first place is it’s another example of a “trait” not going away when it would be expected to, not as an exact parrallel. In hindsight I should have made that clearer to avoid confusion.
This doesn't entirely plug the hole since an unconscious Myrmidon who is attacked by a Flamethrower still has their ODD Burnt, even if the equipment has no effect. Similarly, an unconscious Pathfinder would still be a valid target for Blackout, in order to Disable the Repeater (it's not an efficient use of orders, but it would increase the number of orders required for the Pan-O Mechanist to get the REM fully functional again). Arguably, being a valid target is not a function of the equipment's effects, even though reasonably a Disabled piece of equipment (including from Null states) should also effectively cause the trooper to act and be affected as if the equipment didn't exist. Now, this wouldn't be much of an issue if it weren't for that combined with Stealth, you can much more easily force some very... N2... interactions.
Unconscious models have functioning coms equipment, ectr, ectr, they are just not having any effect, so you can use blackout against an unconscious model. Disabled models have their coms equipment not working and cannot be used. For the last time though, hacker is a skill and the skill gives the hacking device, not the other way around.
