That's getting even more confusing because if it works your way in TI (bearer can choose arm or bts anytime but against adhesive or FO) it should work the same way with bioimmunity. The part about choosing arm or bts have no requirements in both rules and the first part you keep repeating (about attack with arm or bts save) is not a requirement, it's TI effect of ignoring SM. I didn't mean to be rude if that's what you mean. Sorry. Protheion clearly requires BTS saves. TI ability to use arm instead should make it useless. From RAW.
@Dr. Nik by that logic if someone with Bioimmunity gets hit with a shock round and takes the save on bts they don't lose a wound.
As I pointed out earlier and @Hecaton just said above - that quickly leads to absurd results for multiple different situations. The only way to play it that makes sense is to assume that the alternate stat substitutes in for whatever roll the rules call for. I.e. a Karakuri hit by normal ammo will make an "ARM" roll using its BTS stat; a failed save will result in the loss of a wound.
I think it's very clear in Bioimmunity that if they aren't being hit by a bio-munition, they can't choose to roll ARM or BTS. But I can see how, based on that wording, you could make the argument that TI only lets you choose if you have fulfilled the first clause about attacks, saves, etc. Is there anything other than Protheion that would be meaningfully affected by this?
I think the nicer way of putting it is that we have to assume that rules that you would explain to someone as “If you fail your save, such-and-such happens” are meant to work that way. Because CB committed at worst several sins when writing their ammunition rules, or at best assumed we’d be very liberal in reading them—that if you can take one save instead of the other, you need to replace all of the appropriate references. After all, look at what Normal Ammunition says: Each ARM Roll failed against Normal (N) Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute. If you can take a BTS save instead of an ARM roll, what happens? Protheion causes a BTS save. If you fail your save, you take a Wound and the user gains a Wound. It’s the analogous situation as Normal Ammunition, except it’s the other save.
The same rules as written argument requires you to then claim that Total Immunity makes troopers immune to the effects of Normal Ammunition if they choose the BTS save option. Because Normal Ammunition causes effects on failed ARM saves. At which point, you have a contradiction and the argument fails.
Blah, I really wish they'd just dropped that entirely in N3. Hungries don't even have it anymore, and they're basically xenomorphs and it represented their acidic blood.
I read Total Immunity very much the same as @Dr. Nik. Total Immunity has 4 bullet points. They refer to 3 different types of attacks. Non Lethal, Hacking/Comms, and Special Ammo. The second bullet point stating "in addition" doesn't specify what it's in addition to, because it doesn't need to. There is only one logical conclusion. We must assume it's in addition to the last point made. Luckily, there is only one point to choose from. Which is to treat those Special ammo attacks that qualify, as normal ammo. So in addition to treating those cases as normal ammo, a TI trooper can also treat them as either an ARM or BTS save. If anyone disagrees, what else is happening in the first bullet that we can add to? Yes, this isn't bad or strange either. TI Troopers are not treating Special ammo attacks exactly the same as normal ammo attacks in all respects. Players are treating special ammo effects, as normal ammo effects. Which means they just cause 1 wound, nothing special. The difference is subtle, but important. This doesn't mean both attacks use the same ammo but a loophole now makes normal ammo stronger. DA ammo still uses light caliber, viral still uses soft-shell, and normal still uses whatever. The TI trooper has a better defense to special ammo types for whatever reason. It's those special effects that pack a punch. Normal ammo doesn't rely on that special effect to cause damage. So to sum up, Karakuri get one save on BTS 6 vs DA ammo. But one save on ARM 3 vs a combi.
That's not my logic anyway. By my logic Protheion user won't get a new wound for himself if we read the rules this way.
Bioimmunity affects Biomunitions. Total Immunity affects Attacks etc. that force ARM or BTS Rolls. That's a big difference.
For what it's worth; we have three special ammo types now, Standard, Exotic and Biomunittion. Would it hurt to create three types of Immunities, each tied to one of ammo types? Immunity, Exo-Immunity, Bioimmunity. This would allow to make them very similar in terms of wording, and would also make the interaction with things like Poison or Protheion clear.
Sure, but what I'm proposing would allow for greater granularity (it could even get rolled into one skill, Immunity L1 affects Standard, L2 - Standard and Exotic, L3 - all three, LX - Bioammo). Now it's all or none, plus Bioimmunity on the side.
But Non Lethal falls under the same category as ones that force ARM or BTS. If special ammo is a sub heading, Non Lethal should be as well. I don't really want to post the same things in each thread, can we fix this? @psychoticstorm For your interpretation to hold, we must assume the first bullet is providing the requirements for TI to activate. Even though the skill has a requirements field with absolutely nothing listed. Also within that first bullet is listed a special case involving special ammo. The second bullet is then adding to the requirement listed in the first bullet. How do you rate that kind of structure? I rate it very poorly. The wording below can be adjusted, I'm not claiming the wording to be perfect, but the structure is far better if the skill is to be interpreted as you say. TOTAL IMMUNITY AUTOMATIC SKILL Optional REQUIREMENTS The owner must suffer a successful Attack—or be affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls This Special Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack. EFFECTS The owner is immune to the special effects of Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition. When making any ARM Roll or BTS Rolls, instead of using the corresponding attribute, the player can make the roll using either their ARM or BTS attribute, choosing the most advantageous for them. (see example A below) If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3), owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll. The rule above is far easier to understand and interpret. TI doesn't activate against Adhesive, FO, and hacking because the requirements for the skill are not met. How TI works against Special ammo is listed in it's very own bullet point. How TI works when making ANY ARM/BTS roll is clearly listed in it's own bullet point. How TI works against Non Lethal is also listed. In a perfect world, the list of attacks TI works against would be all inclusive and no second bullet would be needed under requirements. The way TI is written in the wiki, I have to assume the first and second bullet is only in reference to Special ammo. The example reinforces this as well.
It doesn’t; for one thing, it’s all one bullet point, rather than two. For another, the first clause of each has a very different scope. I said above that the similarities to Bioimmunity make me sympathetic to a narrower reading of Total Immunity. I think that proposing a more liberal reading of bioimmunity is madness.
