"But.... but... it cannot use it all at the same time!!!!" For me the most ouch for this troop is that it has no KHD, and was quite the candidate for that
You are talking about the spiral corps kiiutan right? In Tohaa the only avaible profile is combi rifle for 30 points.
I wish I could use that Submachinegun profile. Still, the Combi should be enough, I'll try it as soon as I get the miniatures.
I was just looking at the rules forum, and it looks like I had some misconceptions regarding how the new Symbiomates work. They now grant the unit ARM/BTS 9 and Total Immunity, and are only used after making an ARM or BTS roll due to a successful attack, (or are hit by a mine or the like). However, because Total Immunity ignores Flash Pulse and Stun Ammo, no BTS save is made, and the Symbiomate is not used. This makes a 'mate equipped Kiuutan much better at taking out flash pulse remotes.
Good and great are different things. I'm referring to the Tohaa variety w/ Combi Rifle. I think the Combi Rifle loadout doesn't deserve the scorn that many people view it with. But I don't like it as much as I do the other impersonator options, on account of generally lower payoff (I prefer the ability to assassinate one target or mine an area over general gunfighting) and a lower floor to its utility if you go second (its easier to discover, and not strong enough to prevent being killed)
So ijw ruled that having Symbiomates now makes the bearer immune to non-lethal weapons, and they don't trigger the SymbioMate (sans E/M I guess). Enjoy your buff, guys, maybe you can give ALEPH and OSS a run for their money.
Yeah, seems really powerful. Essentially saying that you can't use cheap defensive units to handle symbiomate attack pieces. Questionable balance and questionable rules interpretation.
I wonder though. Back when the total immunity change first dropped I had a couple local players wailing and gnashing teeth that they couldn't flash pulse dog warriors any more and it sort of prompted the slow percolation of thought that maybe we were getting a little too much value out of our 8pt mimetism regular order flashbots compared to what we paid for them and maybe what the designers intended - and I say that as someone who chucks three fugazis and a warcor in every PanO list and will continue to do so into the future. The Symbiomate interaction doesn't seem totally intended and might cop a quick errata-by-way-of-FAQ down the line, and I have to play with it to get an impression, but yeah, this doesn't actually seem that egregious when you look at the existing value of the models its impacting. I mean, it's not like a Tohaa player is going to just totally ignore flash ARO elements, they'll still pause to deal with them just like they always did (and they're still going to be a pain to kill relative to their cost), so you're still getting most of that existing value. Going to keep an eye on this one but I'm about 60% convinced the actual complaint here is just players complaining about having to learn new ways of playing rather than any actual balance concern.
Well, the top-performing tournament factions (Tohaa and ALEPH) don't make heavy use of flash pulse puts in my experience, so it can't be too bad. The designers surely didn't intend for them to be overpowered by design, did they? If the designers think that cheap flash pulse pieces needed to be nerfed, their priorities are out of alignment with how the game is actually played.
See, that's exactly what I mean - your complaint about the adjustment to your perception of how 'the game is actually played'.
Well, yeah, the untreatable effect from 8 pts pieces was just too much. And if TI doggos are immune to Flash now, Symbiomates do grant the same type of immunity via Total.
I don't understand how that counters any of my point. Well, sort of. The argument was whether symbiomates passively made the bearers immune to non-lethal weaponry with being expended; ijw ruled that they do. If the untreatable effect from 8 point pieces is too much, why not adjust those pieces, rather than give Tohaa a modular workaround for it when they're already the 2nd or 3rd (depending on how we're counting) most powerful faction?
I'm also surprised there's such concrete data about the competitiveness of post-Daedelus tohaa as to be able to label them the 2nd or 3rd most powerful faction.
I'm not trying to rebut you, but I think the root cause of your complaint is that you're having to learn something new, and/or that something old and comfortable is changing slightly. It's a typical conservative response (that being an emotive, not political description) and not invalid, but it's usually worth examining why we feel the way we do about things.
But not every faction has Total Immune attack pieces to deal with them, if that's what's meant to deal with them... Moreover, it's not just WarCors who are supposed to defend themselves with Flash Pulses. Ikadrons, 16 point sensor bots, 40 point Umbras, Sun Tze... It's not a change I see having a positive impact on balance.
I'm talking about pre-DF Tohaa. Given that they can now make any Symbiomate attack piece immune to nonlethal attacks (i.e. flash pulse AROs) and have a 2w impersonator who can carry a bomb and/or a mate, they might be even more viable than before, honestly.
Well, if by "learn something new" you mean "play Tohaa or OSS, because they're the sectorials that CB is content to let be powerful" then I agree with you.
That impersonator won't be in imp state if he carries a bomb or a mate so thats risk reward managment, With the changes to mates we are way more likely to get wounds, someone said around 50% worse before even with the TI. So I am pretty sure we are weaker than before and I am looking forward to adapting.
