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Noone discussing NCA upcoming changes ?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Feb 25, 2019.

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  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think the Aquila (and Hsien) are better as an occasional (very) rude surprise for an opponent who thinks they know your army.



    Given the odds on Spec Fire? Yes.

    Besides, an Aqulia Guard has a 45% chance of KOing a linked Kamau MSV MSR:

    Aquila Guard - HMG vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (both sides in cover)
    Active Player
    45.71% Aquila Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    16.59% Aquila Guard inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    31.08% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    23.20% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Aquila Guard (1 W)
    2.51% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Aquila Guard (Unconscious)

    45% v 2.5% is pretty good odds!
     
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  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I don't rank the Hsien and the Aquila in the same class. The Hsien's easy access to smoke in both ISS and Vanilla means the owning player doesn't really have to pick between ignoring enemy mods or being -6 to the enemy... It gets the best of both worlds, plus some stuff like Stealth and direct template weapon tacked on for good measure. When you also consider it's also not in a Sectorial with the Hac Tao, it really doesn't have to make a choice.

    The Aquila vs the Swiss is a pretty direct choice.
     
    #322 barakiel, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Plot twist: to make the Aquila good they give him smoke grenades
     
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  4. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    The Aquila isn't terrible.

    And I've even run a pair of them in an anti-camo list (with a Black Friar Multi and a Deva Spitfire as well) for a tourney where I was expecting a lot of camo-spam and the missions allowed me to play "single list" and vary for opposition.

    I've actually come around to thinking that the Aquila Multi is a better "surprise pick" than the HMG a lot of the time because of the "hunter" aspect.

    But I don't run either with anything even approaching regularity.
     
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    ...Or bring back their underbarrel E/M LGL...

    Yeah the time I use the Aquila a lot is Limited Insertion. You don't want to spend Orders messing around with Sensor. You want to Discover + Shoot with completely certainly of success.
     
  6. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    45% equates to an average of 2.2 orders for the Aquila to put down the Kamau MSR.
    Assuming the table is set up with no cross-board LOF (a hallmark of terrible table setups) and your opponent is halfway competent, you're looking at 4-5 orders on average, when factoring in manoeuvring into LOF, to put down the Kamau.

    A Locust spending those 4-5 orders, starting from midway up the board, and assuming you're just as halfway competent, will either threaten the Kamau with a thrown drop bear before engaging, and/or threaten the rest of the link at the same time. Either way it's probably forcing a dodge rather than a firefight f2f as well as potentially killing the fusiliers providing the link bonuses. And a spec fired grenade hitting on terrible numbers still has to be reacted to, activating a drop bear at the same time, or risk a normal roll.
     
  7. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    And the terrain favours you.

    And your opponent deployed poorly.

    Hell, you also need to get lucky with your Drop Bear throw.
     
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  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I mean, we can do what-ifs forever here.

    If I was the VIRD player facing NCA, the Kamau would be hugging the ass of my DZ to stay firmly out of HMG range, with a healthy insulation of Jammers and Helots covering the dead zone in front of my DZ to make sure no Garuda, Peacemaker or (in this case) Locust try to get lucky. A Kamau far back in the DZ has a pretty big impact on the ability of Drop Bears to reach.

    If you go with the Aquila, and the Aquila runs into trouble, you can probably Doctor the Aquila back up and have another go. If the Locust runs into trouble, noone's coming to help him.

    Doesn't mean the Locust is the wrong move, but the Aquila is a pretty safe choice in this situation.
     
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  9. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Which it also has to for the Aquila to get a shot in a reasonable number of orders.

    Fireteams have to remain close enough together that templates threaten, the nature of the game.

    A 75% unopposed roll, sure (said by someone who failed to datascan an unconscious REM with a Barid hacker across 6 orders... grumble).

    The Aquila has one option, to engage in a direct firefight and do exactly what the VIRD player wants, waste orders. Sure, it'll likely be successful, but then you have an Aquila stood ~12" forward from the DZ with 3-4 orders left.
    The Locust can actually choose how it engages thanks to both its loadout and infiltration giving it more options, some a whole lot safer than eating a Stun round and finding out your Aquila is a 60 point waste of space. Assuming the same levels of moderate success, you have a Locust just outside the enemy DZ with 3-4 orders left, much more threatening.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Aquila reserve drop can be a nasty surprise. But he just drops so easy to anything. Regular BS Attacks, anything in close proximity varying from DTWs to CC troops.
    That said I don't really mind picking up an Aquila after already having a Swiss. But it's pretty much always Swiss first.

    Locusts still face the problem that they are Infiltrators that have trouble living through a turn if your opponent goes first. So I'd rather rely on a Swiss/Aquila backed by a Palbot to take out a Kamau Sniper than them any day.

    @Ayadan if your meta plays with Low Vis Zones on every table the Aquila does get better by a lot.

    On the other hand the Swiss gets that much more sturdy thanks to being able to put BS12 troops in their +3 Range on BS0.
    Any tournament I have seen does not have Low Vis Zones on a regular basis.

    Other than that @Section9 's numbers are using AP for the Kamau Sniper....
    So here is the same thing with DA Aquila Guard - HMG vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Anti-Materiel Mode)
    Active Player
    45.71% Aquila Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    16.59% Aquila Guard inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    27.32% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    26.96% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Aquila Guard (1 W)
    10.49% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Aquila Guard (Unconscious)
    1.78% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 3 or more wounds on Aquila Guard (Dead)

    Those aren't great odds and I'd much rather bypass being forced to take that gamble with Marker State. Especially considering the chances to kill the Kamau are rather low and chances are there will be a Palbot ready.
     
  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I get the argument you are trying to make here, but in the end the Kamau wants to be engaging at long range and a good player is going to make getting close to it tough at best. And I've never seen one positioned where I'd have been able to directly throw a Drop Bear into an effective position without spec fire.

    The Aquila CAN go toe-to-toe with the best ARO in the game with good odds, and that's not something most units can claim.

    .

    Now, how have I used the Aquila before?

    Well, this is what that dedicated anti-Camo list looked like:

    Neoterran Capitaline Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    AQUILA HMG / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 62)
    AQUILA MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 58)
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 33)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    5 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  12. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    That list looks erriely familiar. I remember way back in the N2 days where I championed using dual Aquila lists (back then camo was even scarier and MSV 3 allowed you to auto-shoot markers). Janzeker poped in the thread to more or less say I was power gamey scum and honestly I couldn't argue that. lol

    That list above would be nasty vs Tak ambush camo spam. As long as you get your pathfinder to reveal multiple markers the Aquilas can wipe the table clean.
     
  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Only iif that TAK player is complete incompetent. Any half decent TAK player will make sure you need to spend lots of orders maneuvering to get to just see a marker. Much less talking about good ranges.
     
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  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and as we all know TAK players always win and their game plan never falls apart. Ambush camo dominates the meta!

    Anyway, most games are objective based and facing this much MSV people tend to just go into full cover. Which is awesome, because Pano lacks smoke. Forcing your opponent into full cover is the only way we can safely walk around. Theres also a Pathfinder and speedy Fugazi to get off sensor rolls to unveil multiple camo markers.
     
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  15. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Pproblem with TAK/Ariadna Camo is that a lot of it is deployed up to half the table, protecting short range firelanes.

    And yes, not all those players are good, but you'd be better off spamming Auxilia against both good and bad players.
    .
     
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  16. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    @Ayadan the convoy has moved a bit since I could post, but I would say your analysis is offense loaded and doesn't take marker state and survival into consideration enough. Aquilla can get pasted by a lucky missle, Swiss are a little tougher when hit and hitting them is much more difficult. Piece survival should also be considered when it comes to expensive pieces like these two. The Swiss has significant statistical and intangible advantages when it comes to surviving the order.
     
  17. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but the extra wound on the Aquila helps vs all those chain colts and mines. And using sensor to reveal multiple markers is the only viable way to deal with such marker spam.
     
  18. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    You do understand how Sensor and Sniffers work, right?

    And if the entire army is hidden on turn 1 then in many missions I'm away laughing!
     
  19. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I just built my Aquila Guard* I had laying around to appease whatever gods are in charge of this. We're a few hours away from a disappointing update guys!

    EDIT: I'm going to paint him regardless – who knows, maybe he'll be in foreign company
     
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    And I'm not arguing that. I greatly prefer the Hac Tao over the Hsien (YJ equivalents), for the same reason.




    So? It's still the best option short of a Drago (and if you could get an Aquila Haris for B5 on the HMG, it'd be tied) for dealing with a Kamau MSR in the 16-32" rangeband.

    Any other model is going to spend at least as many orders dealing with said linked Kamau MSR.
     
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