Another question that came up today. If I get a single crit against something with a symbiomate with fire ammo can they use the symbiomate to ignore the fire save?
Due to my understanding the Mate is still there until the resolution step. So ARM rolls that are non Crit should be ignored with my understanding
My understanding is no. Same way if you get crit with a ML, even if you throw a symbiomate you still take one wound automatically and 2 ARM rolls (though it'd protect you from anything else that order).
I would say no, because SymbioMate is not capable to ignore critical hits. Therefore, it shouldn't be capable to ignore the effect of attacks that result in crits. However, you should still be able to use the mate to ignore any other non-crit hits you might get during the same order when you received a Fire crit. That is, if you survive the effect of Fire special ammo :)
Really interesting discussion. I play against a lot of Tohaa and have brought them to a few big tournaments in the past. Something that not a lot of people appreciate is that Tohaa have a pretty weak attrition game. Partially due to lack of REMs, partially due to never bringing back symbios, but mostly it is because their main doctor pays for being an engineer and fireteam, which she rarely uses. I don't see the Kumotail very often, and paramedics tend to be unreliable. This means that you can often leave things unconscious where against other armies you would need to spend an additional 1+ order to make sure they aren't coming back next turn. I think that like Ariadna, Tohaa are strong early, and weak late, making people feel like they are overpowered. I think Mates are very strong, but fine. If I could make one change it would be that they CAN ignore crits, but CANNOT ignore multiple hits. So you burn them to ignore a single hit, not 20.
If Mates only negate one hit it would change Tohaa playstyle because then you would be pretty much spending 21 points for additionally two wounds. Thats not bad but also not as strong anymore so it could turn to a point there bombs actually get used or mates are not as often used.
I believe for fire you can't save the subsequent ones since first you take the initial fire one which removes the symbiomate and then you save the rest, but with things like EXP or DA ammo everything happens simultaneously as per the rules, so I do believe you can avoid the other saves with the mate. There's nothing in the rules or FAQ that says otherwise.
First of all, Symbiomates don't have a vulnerability to fire. Second, you'll note the bullet point under SymbioMates, all Critical Attacks affect them regardless... the effect of a critical effect of (for example) Explosive ammo is 1 automatic wound and two ARM rolls.
I agreed with your on the fire, I don't agree on the critical effects of additional rolls since it says you avoid making the ARM/BTS roll for everything. Looking at the book it says you only bypass the first ARM/BTS roll, so my reading is that you take that one but can avoid the rest, since like I said before, everything is simultaneous in this game.
I got this from the top-ranked Tohaa player in the US last season, and it jives with my reading of the rules. I'd suggest taking a look at the ammo types - they say what the effects of a critical hit are. Moreover, the SymbioMates entry itself says that Critical Attacks themselves affect them regardless, by your logic attacks without special critical effects (such as Forward Observer) wouldn't apply, and we know by Example 2 given for the SymbioMates that a crit with Forward Observer bypasses SymbioMates.
But in the case of forward observer you don't have to make an ARM or BTS roll, the reason you lose the symbiomate in most cases is not the crit itself but because you lose your Symbiont Armor. A better example in any regard would be Flash Pulse, a crit will not take away your wound but it still blinds you and if you don't get crit you can use it to spare yourself the BTS roll. And I'm sorry, but a tourney player's opinion doesn't mean much, would have to come from the design team or a FAQ, the way I interpret it you can still use the mate on the other saves, because again, everything is simultaneous and you use a mate to avoid ARM/BTS rolls which you still have to do for the extra hits. A critical hit just says that the first hit bypasses it and you have to do saves for the others which the explicit rule of symbiomates. I'm actually gonna go ask this in rules clarification so we can get a definitive answer.
You do realize that things like Forward Observer and Adhesive special ammunition are stopped by the SymbioMate too, right? So the logic is therefore that given that Forward Observer does nothing extra on a critical hit, but cannot be stopped by a SymbioMate when it is a critical hit, it's not the "critical effect" that penetrates the SymbioMate's defense, but rather the entire *hit* (which includes the automatic wound and two further armor rolls in the case of explosive ammo). You keep saying "everything is simultaneous" like it's some kind of mantra but it's not actually applicable to your argument. You also keep saying that explosive ammo causes multiple hits - which is incorrect. It's a single hit that forces multiple armor rolls. It's not a critical hit and two normal hits - it's a critical hit that causes one automatic wound as well as two armor rolls.
You're right with the FO and Adhesive, my bad. And regarding the EXP guess you're right, I was viewing it as individual armor rolls not considering it in its entirety as a hit. Still posed the question on the rules forum, but I'm guessing you're right.
The way I understand it a crit means that the effect goes through so crit with exp you get one wound directly and need to do 2 armor rolls
IMO, the best anti-Tohaa tech isn't fire at all, but an HGL or elite LGL. Knock some trash out of a link and watch our efficiency collapse. Likewise Tohaa have deep order pools clustered tightly in a tiny deployment area behind whatever cover is around. That said, if you HGL a Tohaa player prepare to face their A game for the rest of your life, because that shit is not fun to be on the recieving end of.
I've only been playing for 3-4 months and I do pretty well with Tohaa. I had a brief foray into Onyx and found it really restrictive (in all ways). I'll be heading back when I have a better grasp of the game. I played a game last night against a very established player with a new faction. Dice went my way a lot, 4 Symbiomates compound his problems. 9-0 win in Tic Tac Toe. I actually feel kind of bad after the game. Symbiomates let you be overly aggressive. They let you take risks. Blunt damage and soak orders. Tohaa seems to be very durable and forgiving. I'm wondering if I've picked the "easy mode" faction and should just ride out the sharp learning curve of Onyx/Combined. I wonder if playing Symbiomates is blunting my development as a player. Or I could just be being overly dramatic. I'm prone to hyperbole. =P
