I can readily accept a rolling upgrade across the line. But not what appears to be a parting gift. If it's ready, release it. If you wait a month to make it flashy for a convention announcement, so be it.
Yeah but why are you mad that I'm not mad about it being an update at the point of being cycled out? I guess is more the question
I can't carry all of the pitchforks and tar and feathers by myself, you know. :D Where's those torches go...? Nevermind.
Couldn't you swap out those pitchforks, tar and feathers - being such undignified instruments of discusion - in favour of baklava and mint tea? ;)
I would be more excited about these guys if they had ARM2. ARM 1 without any defensive bonus is too fragile for a 30+ point model. If they up the cost by 1-2 points and made them all ARM2 i would be more likely to play them. The MSV2 & Mk12 profile is very tempting, but its just too fragile. If you compare it to the Djanbzan, the Khawarij has a much better chance to kill you opponent, but the Djanbzan can take a lucky hit. With ARM1 its not worth the risk of trying to use superjump to shoot something. If I'm not mistaken you don't get cover in superjump, making it only usable if you are in a models back arc (or smoke)
I'm not sure I buy that. ARM is a pretty expensive stat and it doesn't really add that much extra durability. I'd rather not add an extra cost to an already expensive unit, especially one that has BS13--a pretty powerful defense especially on the active turn. Yes, crits happen. But armor does not help against them. Like other have said, I'd rather trim off some points by dropping CC and/or poison. The problem isn't fragility, especially with our midfield healers, so much as it is high cost.
Frankly, I feel some of you folks are too exited by things that, to be blunt, don't matter. Fat1? +1 pt or ARM? Take a Dice calc for a spin and you'll see that modifying damage rolls by 1-2 points (that's what those things do) barely changes results even when you run stuff at a Dam base of 13, and damage rolls not being something that pertains to F2F winning, it doesn't even affect outcomes across the board. Like I've said before when we were discussing Fat2, even basic Mimetism that everyone and their dog has on what passes for brute force units these days blows those cute fluffy gimmicks out of water. My problem is, I don't want another generic unit optimized for what it is so convenient to do in Infinity - taking as a "plan A" in a 16+ models lists (with cheap fillers in Cores when needed) and reliably shooting stuff. Sure, there are many tables where Super-Jumping units and links are absolute horrors to deal with, like it was mentioned already in this thread, so that's something effective and interesting... But Hollow Men exist. Rodoks exist. We aren't outdoing those two in what those do best, and I'm afraid there's no extra niches for us to occupy there with something that's "a link that goes in". As a centerpiece of a sectorial list, Khwarijis are kinda interesting in that they drag a good Doc+ with them while being hard to attack on their reactive turn (on some tables and against some enemy lists), so they can maintain link bonuses throughout the game more reliably rather than less, but that's probably it. I'm not sure in what world it justifies their point cost compared to stuff I'm trying to compare them to, but there's that. And also grenades. Which is probably nice, but we have much less cumbersome and expensive Mirage-5 that does "tactical spec.fire" as good as, and sometimes better than Khwarijis will, and we know how that plays out already (hint: noone cares about Mirage-5). I still like that some of our units (including Khwarijis) are trying to be mildly competent at mundane things with toolboxiness going for them as their extra in the era of min-maxing and specialization on straightforward stuff, but I'm not sure if that truly makes for competitive choices. Looking at our other sectorials, amazing cheap support units can still make armies workable, and RTF still awaits for its new units, but it may mean unfortunate things because of Vanilla.
The problem with these profiles is they are expensive and bloaty for flavor. Fat1 is nice, but a points bloat on FO and CoC, Poison is a cool thematic thing, but never comes up and costs points. Religious brings the points down slightly, but were still looking at ARM1 BS13 at nearly the cost of HI. I think if they took a straight 2 points off all of the profiles that would make them in line with other units. If these guys go against the Pano signature units for Varuna (Kamau), or the Acon (Bagh Mari), they get blown out of the water for much cheaper. I am VERY concerned that they are going to try and make RTF the same as Invincible's, but that produces one glaring weakness, it will be 10 model lists made up of LI, and NOT ARM 3+ units with NWI and a good deal of Shock Immunity. They could fall in line with OSS, where they have a variety of hard hitting wide points ranging units, or low point models fueling a haris, while still hitting around 14-15 points. I very much hope, because the box released they provided a quick and dirty unit update, while the actual unit update will hit with RTF (similiar to Asura).
I was hoping a change in profile. Something like mv 6-4 or 6-6 If they should be some type of attack piece with high mobility(at least is what I think super jump should give) give them something to pair with this skill. And I don't understand ft core. Or better I am not sold that a core will be a great for khawarijs if not for the extra burst to search another crit. Haris will be better for tarik+khawarijs
Hyper-dynamics always seemed like a better fit than Fatality for adding some flair to Khawarijs. It would represent their augmented physiques, allow them to survive face-to-face better, and potentially allow them to get into melee to use their Poison. They'd be brazenly dashing across gaps and gantries, getting closer and closer, rather than shooting harder. Oh well. Anyway, I still don't think Khawarijs will strike fear into anyone's heart, at least until Al-Medinat invents some Netrod equivalent.
I think when ramah goes live we will some more stuff change on the khawarij. CB showed us the new and updated kamau profiles when beyond icestorm came out and they were definitely different from the original profiles but it basically boiled down to give them mimetism and take away x-visors but hey the sniper gets msv2. Then later on varuna goes live and we now see shock immunity and stealth as well. I think something similar will happen for the khawarij.
Give tarik MA3 and give khawarijs MA1. Their place is as the cc link that can also decently shoot but is made of glass. Zhayedans should be the shooty link team option. Khawarijs are the elite toolboxy CC link, but their lack of defense means they get an offense (shooting) boost too.
I have quite a few Haqq items on hold (including the new Khawarij box) awaiting some definitive news on RTF. It honestly seems a bit silly to release updated placeholder profiles that just aggravate folks, but maybe that is the master plan to make us happy for whatever we do get in the end since it should be better than the meh placeholder. I have been excited for RTF, but quite honestly that excitement has begun to ebb a bit as time goes by. Hopefully we get word soon and get the actual profiles for the Khawarij. I also hope the Khawarij are able to arm swap fairly easily, but the trend seems to be away from that with upper bodies locked to arms.
Nah even if you are using Tarik and Fat2, jumping and shooting something in a "fair fight" is a bad idea unless you're really desperate. Superjump is more to manoeuvre your dude to ensure an unfair fight in your favor, whether by shooting something out of cover while you are in cover, or when they are out of range, or even better in the opponent's back.
Well, it does rather gruesome things to certain gameplans when present on defining units (Riots, Magisters in the past etc.). But then again, maybe that's exactly what otherwise fragile and expensive guys need - some almost universal defensive buff. ...honestly, depending on table (somewhat tall buildings, lack of stairs and ladders - not exactly a rare layout) and mission (of some direct action kind), Super-jumpers with Hyper-Dynamics may be one of the most obnoxious things you can face.
Now I can't help comparing them to Hollow Men and Rodoks. In the end, Khawarijis are slightly cheaper than Hollow Men, slightly more expensive than Rodoks, but no matter to who we compare them, they have both worse defense and survivability. The advantage of Khawarijis is.. 2-3 cool-ish loadouts. That gives Ramah iconic unit a score of 5meh/10
