Hey all, So having had a couple of months hiatus, I am back, and my first game is going to be my MO going up against Tunguska in Firefight. And I am bricking it. A hacking heavy sectorial, with a lot of tricks, and Raoul Spektre? Oh god. What sort of list would people recommend? I've been going round in circles a bit on this. I suspect a Hospitaller core or harris will struggle, but I was toying with a FK Order Sergeant core, maybe just with spitfires given the 16 inch deployment zones. FK's higher BTS I'd hope might protect me against his hacking attacks, but on the other hand, if I run a Hospitaller Core I can run de Fersen who would then cover 14 of the classifieds... but then I need something to protect my back against the inevitable Raoul... Any help or suggestions would be hugely appreciated please, as I feel like I am hitting my head into a brick wall!
My latest experiences against Nomads in general and Tunguska in special are that you need to be careful and have to force him to waste orders with moves. So it is all about a defensive play. I would try a a Core of FK Spitfire and some OS and at least one TOFOOS. Maybe the Santiago KHD and the OS Hacker for Fairy Dust. But in the end, I am more worried about Hollow Men, than some hacking-dudes.
So I have flapped my way through into creating a few lists... Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 3 DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Tonnes of stealth, the Sierra can help watch the backline of stuff like the hacker and hopefully stop a rogue Raoul, but obvious lieutenant is obvious... Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 4 DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33) KNIGHT OF MONTESA Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 37) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) 5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Same as above, but with a Montesa as an alpha strike, and probably slightly more flexibility on classifieds. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 1 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) KNIGHT OF MONTESA Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 37) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) 3.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army Very strong core, with stealth, some decent protection, but weaker backline. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) FATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Spitfire / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 50) FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army This plays on what @Capo.Paint suggested, though I kinda want a FK AHD in there... the other option woiuld be to lose dart and the Sergeants, and upgrade to the ridiculous 2/3 FK, 1/2 Santiago's and then a Blackfriar/Konstantinos link... but that is very all eggs in one basket!
I don't know about the Montesa. He seems too killable. I had a couple of games against Tunguska including one in which I used a Joan v2 + Santiago KHD + De Fersen + Hospitaller HMG + Hospitaller doc. The good thing was the fireteam held back Mary Problems and an interventor without receiving a single wound. The bad thing was I also couldn't do anything to them and the match was one of the most boring experiences I had playing Infinity. I'm not a big fan of the Crusader, but maybe you can use it to jump near his hackers and do some damage. Give him a hand with Controlled Jump, with PH 11 jumping without supportware is too risky. But as Capo.Paint said, if you focus too much on countering his hackers, you may end up with a suboptimal list for countering hard hitting units like the Hollow Men or the Kriza Boracs.
@Quehacesfede I am kinda going off the Montesa if I am running Dart as well. I've got Dart in all the lists to basically hunt Mary Problems. That is her one job. Kill Mary Problems, job done. If she can hunt out a Jammer wielding Heckler as well, all the better, but the main job is Mary. My thought behind the Montesa was that I could zoom it up to kill the backline, and hunt the inevitable puppetmaster and Interventor Lieutenant. Running with roughly what you have suggested: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 2 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) DE FERSEN Spitfire / Pistol, Templar CCW (AP + Shock). (2 | 56) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Solid BTS across the board where necessary, and Dart to hunt down MP. I feel an order sereant hacker or EVO hacker is kinda obligatory as well to throw up fairy dust against hackers. Feels like the list could do some damage to a hollowman link, but it could potentially grind to a halt I guess. I'm still very up in the air on all of this, other than I think running a Knightly link with full stealth is going to be pretty important. I don't really know what to bring to crack a hollowman link though, apart from serious weight of fire. Maybe I go down the Hospitaller Haris (HMG, KHD, Doctor), and FK ML, FK Spitfire, 3 OS' route? The one thing I think I ahve to avoid is tags sadly, just because Raoul will eat them for breakfast!
The Death Star core I used was purely experimental. I'm not sure i'll recommend it for anything but casual play. As I said in my post, it was a boring match that ended in a stalemate. Using Dart for hacker hunting looks interesting. I haven't tried her so I can't give you any advice on her, but sounds good on paper. Puppetbots are insufferable little turds. Managed to get rid of them a couple of times using the old way. By killing each one of them. In fact, I was never able to get to the Puppet Master. Fairydust is almost mandatory, it makes your units harder to hack but more important, they turn your Santiago KHD into a serious threat. In case of Hollow Men fireteam, I recommend a large dose of flying lead. I got lucky a couple of times getting the HM with the missile launcher using the HMG HK firiing between 16 and 24 inches or the TO MSR OS using surprise shot. The rest of the profiles lack a proper long range weapon, and I've never faced a spitfire HM, so keep your distance and administer the recommended amount of flying lead
The hollow men have a cc of 10, they are one of the few things our knights can reliably punch in cc, so that's could also be an option should the occasion arise.
You want to sure that you don't over-respect TJC's hacking game. TJC isn't nearly as scary vanilla because they don't have the same repeater coverage. If you take out Mary Problems (a good task for Dart or Konstantinos), the hacking game is reserved for the back lines without them using pitchers. On top of that, stealth will let you get into position. I would take a hospitlar core with a doctor and HMG. Support it with an engineer and EVO hacker. I think you will get more use out of teampro than fairy dust. If you deploy conservatively and the hollow-men can't get to you easily, you'll be able to decimate them on the crack-back, especially with things like E/M grenades.
What I would field is the following: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army The Hospitaller-Core can solve nearly every of your problems and when not, one TOFOOS will be there to help. The Father-Engineer has his helpers for a quick hard-reset available, when the fairydust failed. Dart can hunt whatever is nearby. If you play around a little bit with the points, you maybe can include a Hospitaller LT instead of the Santiago Spitfire as Captain Obvious. Jeanne and DeFersen are absolutly no option for me agains Tunguska. They have only this very vulnerable Crusade-Link and you have too many points in one basket, which is very vulnerable for nearly everything, Tunguska can field. My last games were with a small Core-Link (Santiago KHD, Santiago Spitfire, OS Paramedic, BF) and a Hospitaller-Haris (Doc, HMG, MR LT), supported by a MSV2 Spitfire OS and one TOFOOS, but totally planned for defensive play. Whenever I was disciplined enough not to move into the opposing deployment zone, things went good, even without shooting actively. But when approaching to fast, the game was over. But I have to admit, that the list with two small links is taylord to my needs of not too many people needed to be placed good.
Not reliably not really. Our most reliable cc sticks are the hospitaller doc with palbot and seraph due to burst 2 and Joan due to ma 3
Not reliably not really. Our most reliable cc sticks are the hospitaller doc with palbot and seraph due to burst 2 and Joan due to ma 3
Hmm. I hadn't really thought about hanging back and playing relatively defensively, but that is actually a good shout. I have no real reason to need to go into their repeater net, or into jammer range, so can force them to burn orders coming forwards and eating shots. Also means I am not overextending, and can protect the squishy bits a bit better. I am used to running mo much more aggressively, to get the spitfires up in people's faces, but that might be a better idea here. Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Should I be trying to squeeze in a CoC KotHS? Lieutenant will be super obvious, and gets points too, so I figure it will be an absolute prime target...? I also notice a lot of people are mixing non stealth units into the core, is that a good idea? I guess if it's staying relatively stationary it's less of an issue unless some pitchers are thrown in, but if it advances, it seems like a real problem? Obviously an order sergeant really cheapens the link which is fab, but just a tad worried about the fact it removes stealth from everybody (damned rules). Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
I don't think we are using the same metric for reliable. Other than the jsa and ajax and achilles we have the best HI CC troops in the game. While they aren't the greatest at cc overall they almost always have a fighting chance to win in cc and come on great shooting platforms with two wounds.
There is a difference between ok in its category and ok in general. MO cc falls solidly in ok in its category , specially since the game is rife with models that are superior to them in cc either entirely or superior due to their marginal cost. Cc 21-22 and martial arts 1 is not a reliable in cc due to how swingy single dice f2f rolls are. For example unless heavy visual modifiers are involved a hospitaller is better off shooting his combi within 8 than trying to dice off in melee. Even a single extra dice goes miles towards resolving the reliability problem. Things with cc 20+ and ma3 get to side step the problem a bit by how much they buff their own dice roll. For example a domaru vs a model with cc 13, if the domaru uses ma3. His minimum die roll is 7 and his opponents maximum is 10, definitely odds most people can live with.
Ok I think I understand what you're saying. I also totally agree that hospitallers are way better off shooting than committing to cc. But I think that's what makes them so good. They have above average cc on excellent shooting platforms. Infinity is first and foremost a gunfight so opting for the knife first is rarely a good answer except for certain units. I agree with what you're saying about CC specialists having better odds and not relying so much on the dice to get them the win. Against those types of units our knights should avoid the melee first and foremost and go all indiana Jones on them. The nice thing I really like about the knights and I feel gets overlooked is that I've never found them at a huge disadvantage in a cc fight. Granted many times against those cc specialists the odds are not in the knights favor but it's not as bad as it could be.
So I won, just, but I won. 3-2 victory. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) 3.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army Not quite sure what he was running, but off the top of my head, there was a combat group of a Lunokhvod, couple of Transductor Zonds, Interventor and Clockmaker, and then a second group with a Securitate Core (couple of snipers and a Grenzer in there), a Heckler, Mary Problems, a lone Hollowman with a spitfire, and a hidden FO Spektre. He thought we were playing frontline originally, so the list was geared towards that slightly more, as was his deployment. He got first turn, so I chose the side with marginally better cover (I was quite worried by the jumping hollowman), but he spent his first turn just manouvering into position and covering some firelanes. I had deployed with the knightly fireteam hidden in a corner, so I sent Dart off down the side where she butchered Mary Problems, a Transductor Zond, and took a wound off the hollowman before being gunned down on his active turn. Second turn he ramboed the Lunokvod towards my Fugazi, Evo, and Engineer, but I managed to spot it with a Santiago and shot it out, so he manouvered his core to cover the main approach my knights would have to take. I then revealed the TOFOOS and basically ramboed it around the back of the board, taking out the Spektre, and knockingout a couple of the Securitate with a mine. His last turn was spent running everything away, but managing to just sneak a hit in on my evo after killing the TOFOOS, so I was forced to run the Knights out (Finally!) where they failed one of my classifieds, but did take out another specialist drawing us even on them. I got the 3 points for killing more stuff (he had 100 left, I had 204), and he got a clasiffied and panopolies, but I didn't really focus on the mission very well. Hiding my knights worked perfectly, but a well placed pitcher could have ended everything, even with the way I was covering the avenues. Dart and the TOFO were the absolute MVPs!
