That's because the rules allow troopers to do that in the general case - you can shoot any point of the enemy's movement path you can see. If there's a stealth trooper behind someone who has a Jammer, and they walk out of the Jammer trooper's ZoC and then shoot them in the back in the same order, the trooper with Jammer can ARO them where they started, which is within Jammer range.
6th sense lets you delay your aro, but does not grant one out of LOF! It only grants a ftf roll vs an attack (ignoring LOF). I think that is an important difference! So IMHO 6th sense is void here, it only negates surprise.
Just so we are clear it grants you a response that may become a F2F roll. IE you can BS attack DTW or BS attack to hit
yeah, ftf-roll an attack, not ARO movement behind your back. You do not ignore LOF or gain 360 (for general ARO purpose), you may just ftf vs an attack (even without LOF).
Nah. There's a fundamental difference: Can you use SSL1 respond to a CC attack with a BS Attack when the attacker moves from out side Facing at step 3 of the order, the defender delays their ARO at step 4 and the attacker declare CC attack at step 5? A. Yes. SSL1 let's your respond to attacks regardless of facing. The attacker counts as attacking for the entire order so the defender can ARO at a point prior to the attacker reaching B2B and so BS Attack would be valid. B. No. SSL1 let's you respond to attacks regardless of facing, however the attacker only counts as attacking once they reach B2B and so BS Attack would not be valid at that time. Edit: you can rephrase the above for Zero Vis Zones as well, but the logic is the same. Added for completeness in the spoiler. Spoiler Can you use SSL1 respond to a CC attack with a BS Attack when the attacker moves through a Zero Vis Zone at step 3 of the order, the defender delays their ARO at step 4 and the attacker declare CC attack at step 5? A. Yes. SSL1 let's your respond to attacks even without LOF. The attacker counts as attacking for the entire order so the defender can ARO at a point prior to the attacker reaching B2B and so BS Attack would be valid. B. No. SSL1 let's you respond to attacks even without LOF, however the attacker only counts as attacking once they reach B2B and so BS Attack would not be valid at that time. Personally I think A is the answer because that's how it works for cover and BS Attacks through Zero Vis Zones.
@Diphoration the short of it is that you don't have to be attacked from outside of your LoF to use SSL1's first bullet point.
Yeah, I think the first bullet point of 6th Sense is void for CC, because there you always have 360 and can F2F. That is why they emphasis "only attacks" (not movement), and explain what happens in CC in the next bullet point. But 6th Sense does not grant ARO out of LOF. You may just F2F an attack. F2F an attack is not the same as ARO. Please show me where is says that you can ARO out of LOF? Edit: To clarify my opinion: If you BS vs an CC attack, you effectively ARO vs the movement prior to engage. And that is not something 6th Sense allows you to do. Just F2F vs the attack. And the possible F2Fs while engaged do not include BS attacks.
Your argument is "I think the first bullet point is void", "show me where it says that you can respond to attacks regardless of facing or outside of LOF"... Me: "umm... because the first bullet point says to". We don't think the first bullet point is void just because you get LOF at some point in the order. I'm not actually getting why you do think it's void in this case, would you mind explaining? Say that the attacker starts in LOF and moves outside of the defenders facing, in my opinion it would be valid to shoot them at a point outside the facing of your troooper due to SSL1. A reason you would so this is for specific Template placement. Basically the first point allows you to go "I want to respond when you are in this position, not just when I can see you".
I only think the first point is void for CC, because in CC you always have LOF & F2F*. Did you read my edit in the last post or was it while you wrote your answer? That is where we differ! What is that 'respond'? You are allowed to F2F vs a CC attack, that is what the first bullet point states, it does not allow you to ARO vs the whole order. (* Stuff like IMM, etc... aside)
You do not need to be attacked from outside of LoF to use the first bullet point of ssL1. And yes, it does allow a trooper to ARO vs "the whole order," because that's how Infinity works. If you want to claim that "respond" means that the model using ssl1 is forced to perform its ARO at exactly the same LoF as the enemy, you could, but you'd be wrong.
Im sorry but Inane.imp is accurate. This is made clear in the examples that your ARO is as if you had LOF for the entire order (Total cover not withstanding)
This is a misstatement as Engaged activates as soon as a trooper inters into bases to base with an enemy trooper, and the effects are not delayed until the next order. CC attack can only occur while in Base to Base and in the Engaged state, and only attacks can be responded to. Sixth Sense does not allow you go gain LoF to a unit if it attacks from outside your LoF only that you may respond to it regardless of LoF, and Move is not an attack. Again, Jammer has its own rules, and they are not analogous in this situation because the rules for Jammers allow them to make BS attacks with their Jammer against any activation within their ZoC, (unless the unit is stealthy). Sixth Sense may only respond to Attacks. There no example within the rules for Sixth Sense which supports this. Yes, respond, but not ignore the Engaged state in the order that a unit moves into base to base. Conflating the "respond with a face to face to attacks" with "may make a BS attack against an model attacking in CC before it gets to you because you can respond without LoF to any part of their movement because of they did attack" seems to be part of the problem. For the third time... Yes, because that is how Jammer works. You may make attacks and AROs with it against anyone within your ZoC, and per the Stealth Rules: However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO. I understand that you are trying to apply other rules as precedent, but these rules are stating how they work, and only muddy the water when Sixth Sense does not have the same or even similar wording. I would agree with you if there was something within Sixth Sense which states the unit can attack at any point of the move before the unit declares the CC Attack, or gains visibility to the unit for the entire Order if it declares an attack. Unfortunately, at this time it does not. Therfore, I believe B is the most correct answer, as A is reliant on using the rules for making a BS attack through a Zero Visibility Zone and trying to apply them to a CC Attack.
Happened while I was responding. "If you BS vs an CC attack, you effectively ARO vs the movement prior to engage. And that is not something 6th Sense allows you to do. Just F2F vs the attack. And the possible F2Fs while engaged do not include BS attacks." This is the crux of the issue. Your interpretation doesn't align with how "all at one time" is usually considered to work. Consider a third trooper, Charles, a Hacker in whose ZOC the attacker started their movement. Let's assume that the attacker moves with Stealth. Even if position that the attacker declares the attack is outside ZOC Charles can still Hack against the attacker. This is because the attacker counts as attacking for the entire activation and therefore loses Stealth for the entirety of the move, not just at the position at which they declared the attack. Thus, the fact that the attack was declared in B2B is irrelevant: the trooper counts as attacking from their original position until their final position. This is consistent with all other similar interactions: An Intruder moves under Smoke from outside cover into a position where it will have cover. Once in cover it declares a BS Attack. An enemy trooper declares BS Attack back and resolves the attack against a position where the Intruder does not have cover: the Intruder counts as attacking from their original position through to their final position.
Can you please elaborate this? Because I don't see this in the examples given. If that was true, then even a trooper without 6th Sense would be able to react with a BS attack against Shinobu. Because as soon as B2B/Engaged is established, he has LOF to her.
So to summarize this: Assumption: You don't have LOF until B2B. 1. 6th Sense does not grant you LOF, you may only respond to attacks without it. 2. When in the engaged state without prior LOF or ARO, you can not BS, only CC. Which of these is wrong in your opinion?
No, because he would need LoF to her at a point at which she was not in base contact with him, as there is no Sixth Sense to remove the requirement for LoF on that attack.
Neither of those are wrong, but you're not not understanding properly what #1 means. You can respond when the enemy attacks you, at any point in that order, which, if they moved into base with you, might include a BS Attack.
