@nehemiah nothing in the wording of Sixth Sense L1 implies that the trooper using it is required to perform its ARO at the exact point and LoF that the attacker performs their attack; that would, in fact, be very contrary to the order structure in Infinity, where troopers functionally occupy all positions along a movement path until the conclusion of an order.
@Hecaton Do you think Sixth Sense allows a unit to perform a BS Attack if an enemy model begins base contact with it? If not why not? @Mahtamori Actions are performed all at once, but the attack does not occur until the two units are engaged as per the restrictions of declaring a CC Attack which require the Unit be in base to base contact with the enemy, therefore an ARO to it cannot be made along any point of its move unless the reacting unit has Line of Sight beforehand because the Move Skill is not an action which Sixth Sense would be able to declare an Attack against unless it had LoF, (which only is granted when the 2 units enter base to base). This does illustrate why Sixth Sense and Delaying is useful because if the unit decides to shoot on the way in the Sixth Sense Unit may make a BS Attack back at it because the BS Attack would have to be performed before the 2 units were engaged, so there would be no restriction to the ARO. I am curious as to what part of not allowing the unit to shoot a unit in CC is somehow not aligning with the rule of Sixth Sense? Sixth Sense says you may respond with a face to face roll, and both CC and Dodge are face to face rolls. The attack does occur within the ZoC, but the Engaged state limits what attacks can be performed. See the FAQ at the bottom of Sixth Sense reactions to attacks coming from outside the Engaged state which indicates that you can Dodge, but are still restricted to actions which can be performed when in the engaged state.
After reading the comments and rethinking about it... I don't think the "All at once" for close combat means that the attack is both in and out of LoF. The close combat is strickly declared while in base to base. The "All at once" simply means that everything that happened in the order can be opposed via FtF even if they are declared at different points. ---- Here is a scenario to illustrate the claim that "All at once" doesn't make an attack be considering "in" and "out" of base contact. Oniwaban Shinobu Kitsune is in a smoke with a Ghazi Muttawi'ah. She uses her first order to move into base to base. Her stealth making it so the Muttawi'ah does not have ARO. Her second skill is Close Combat, breaking stealth and allowing the Ghazi to react as he did not previously declare an ARO. If the "All at once" made the Close Combat be considered to be attacking while being in and out of Base to Base, the Ghazi could use his Jammer agaisn't Shinobu before she reaches Base to Base with him (Jammer doesn't require LoF). --- I do not think the wording of Sixth Sense allows you to shoot before she reaches Base to Base. It only grants the user to "respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks [...] even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user.". But he can already respond to this attack regardless of his facing as he is in Base to Base with the user (which grants 360 to engaged model), but only with AROs that are available are ARO available while engaged. The key part being that he can reply to the Attack, but that this Attack is strickly only done in Base to Base. (Further reinforced by the requirement of Close Combat, see bellow) --- http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Attack_Declaration For a troop to declare a CC Attack either in its Active Turn or Reactive Turn, it needs to: Be using a CC Weapon, or a Skill or piece of Equipment capable of a CC Attack. Be in base to base contact with an enemy. The player must make sure to meet all Requirements before activating the troop and declaring the CC Attack.
@Diphoration what you're missing there is that Stealth specifically prevents the use of AROs that can't be used in CC in that situation. If a non-Stealth trooper walked into CC, the Ghazi *could* use its Jammer. And none of that applies to a trooper using SS, because Stealth doesn't work on them anyway. @nehemiah in response to your question, of course not. There is no point in that order where the active trooper was not engaged with the user of Sixth Sense, which is different from OP's example. Also, your comment about "Well, dodge or CC is a FtF roll, and you already get that, so Sixth Sense doesn't give an additional benefit" is a red herring. There is no circumstance where a non-Null, non-Immobilized trooper doesn't have a at least a Change Facing or Reset against an attack coming from the ZoC anyway. That's not what that first bullet point of Sixth Sense is saying, because that would be meaningless - it's saying that when you do perform your ARO, if someone has attacked you within your ZoC, you can make your ARO without regard for facing and without needing to meet the usual LoF requirements.
Just so we're absolutely clear here; it's entirely possible to declare BS Attack as an ARO against a target that declared Move to get into Close Combat with your trooper. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders#Coordinated_Order_example:_Movement_.2B_CC_Attack Coordinated Order example: Movement + CC Attack During his Active Turn, a Combined Army player decides to coordinate a group of 4 Vanguard Infantry Morats and sic them into Close Combat against a Dragão. He spends a Command Token and a Regular Order, places a Spearhead Marker beside one of the Morats, and declares the first Short Skill of his Coordinated Order: Move. The Dragão can only react against one of the oncoming Vanguards, so it declares BS Attack against the Spearhead Morat. <..>
@Hecaton you missed the point I was trying to illustrate. It is a completely different example that shows that using Close Combat on someone (which breaks your stealth for the whole order), doesn't retroactively allow the Ghazi to jam you before you reached him. (Or perhaps it does?) To clarify what "All at once" meant for Close Combat. @Mahtamori Of course you can declare a BS attack against someone who Move + CC, granted you had a way to see them before the attack. My concern is that the bullet point says you can respond to the attack regardless of facing (which you already have anyway), but the attack is strickly declared while engaged. This rule could really use some clarification.
Sixth Sense is notorious for being in need of a writing revamp for a while now. At least this much we can all agree on.
That's only because Stealth specifically says that you're restricted to using AROs that can be declared while engaged in that situation. So the example you're using is particular to Stealth, and is a non sequitur in the context of Sixth Sense.
Does the Skill Move allow the unit with Sixth Sense to shoot at the unit if they move into Base to Base?
Okay, so you agree that a model who moved into base to base while in full line of sight would still be ARO:able with BS Attack. However, if the responding model does not have LOF due to facing but can respond to the attack regardless of facing if attack, you think it can't. If inside facing it can. If outside a facing it can't... even if it disregards the facing? See the logical fallacy here?
The fact that the active model's other short skill is a CC Attack triggers Sixth Sense and allows the reactive model to ignore the LoF requirement, so it doesn't matter. If the active model went move => dodge, the model with sixth sense would be stuck doing only the skills that are usable while engaged.
Doesn't really matter, because that's not the situation that's being discussed here, and it's not even analogous. I'd suggest stating what you mean rather than asking hypothetical questions at this stage. Any argument you make is also going to have to address the question of what exactly that first bullet point in Sixth Sense L1 means, in a way other than "don't trust your lying eyes, ignore that rule, it doesn't exist!"
These questions are fundamental to understanding the deceleration of the order. Your argument relies on the "All at Once" aspect of the rules, to posit that you may declare a BS Attack on a model which can only legally declare its attack when it is in the engaged state which prohibits BS Attacks. The All at Once rule cannot apply in the given example because the unit with Sixth Sense is only granted the opportunity to respond to an Attack with a face to face within its ZoC regardless of Line of Fire, and the CC Attack can only be made at the point the 2 units are engaged, and the Engaged state limits what face to face AROs are valid. The first bullet point only states that you can respond with a face to face roll, not that you may ignore the restrictions of being Engaged. At no point in its movement can the the attacking unit declare a CC attack before it enters the Engaged State. And as I explained in an earlier post this allows the Sixth Sense model to respond back with a BS attack if the unit moving into Base to Base contact declares a BS attack as its second short skill because it would have to be before the 2 units are engaged, and would be coming from outside the Sixth Sense units LoF but in its ZoC. This is what makes Sixth Sense different to a 360 visor.
Your still stuck in the mindset that the position the attacking enemy is in is somehow relevant. The rules does not say it is, so the position is not relevant. Sixth Sense L1 only cares about being attacked in order to be able to respond with no regard for facing. Once you are able to disregard facing, the Sixth Sense trooper will have LOF to the approaching melee trooper at a point where that trooper was not in melee.
While I understand were you are coming from, responding to an attack and being allowed to respond with a BS Attack ignoring the rules for being engaged are very different, and I do not understand how Sixth Sense circumvents this, but only in the same order as the unit is moving into Base to Base. Nowhere in the rules for Sixth Sense does it state that it works similarly to revealing from Camouflage in that the enemy unit become effectively target-able along its entire movement leading up to base to base, yet the argument seems to rely on such a clause or example being included in the Sixth Sense Rule.
It's also "regardless of facing." Which is going to be crucial here, when someone runs up behind you. The other thing is that Engaged only limits your actions if you're Engaged for the entire order - if there's a point during the order in which you are not Engaged, you can act normally there, and if a trooper is moving into base from behind another, then there is a point during the order in which you are not engaged. Normally, if someone walks up behind a trooper, the reactive trooper can't retaliate with a BS Attack for two reasons: 1) Before the active model reaches base contact, the reactive model does not have LoF. 2) Once the active model reaches base contact, the reactive model *does* have LoF, but is engaged. So in neither of those situations can a model without sixth sense retaliate with a BS attack. If the user is attacked, however, Sixth Sense L1 removes the LoF requirement on #1, so a BS attack can be made at any point in that part of the movement of the active model. Jammers don't require LoF, so they're roughly analogous to this situation. Someone walks up behind someone who has a Jammer, they get Jammed. Someone walks up behind someone with SSL1 and attacks them, they take a BS attack. Very similar. But it did declare it during the order, and the trooper using Sixth Sense is not obligated to respond at the exact point in the movement path that the attacking model attacked it at. The first bullet point of Sixth Sense does not require someone to attack the Sixth Sense trooper outside of its LoF. Where in the Sixth Sense trooper's ZoC the attack is declared doesn't matter - either way it allows the Sixth Sense Trooper to ARO without needing LoF. No, what makes it different is the need for an enemy to attack in order to ignore LoF/Facing - a 360 visor trooper can shoot someone attempting to move => move in their "back" arc, a trooper with Sixth Sense cannot. You still haven't explained what that first bullet point actually allows troopers to *do* in your mind - you seem to be claiming that it should be ignored.
It's easy. By being attacked, the Sixth Sense unit gets to ignore facing. Boom! They now have LoF to the attacking unit to a position where that unit wasn't in Base to Base contact. And since the unit isn't in Base to Base contact there it can be shot at. You've already agreed this is sane logic, and I've shown you an example of this logic at work in the rules.
