I'll leave this out there for us to salivate over ...

Yeah no I get there is a large BS differential but having played this game a fair bit I already comfortably knew that a large BS differential will not win you every fight. Its one of the reasons why I can shoot with Marksmaship X at 20+ and still not reasonably to expect to win alot of the time.

As I pointed out any unit with a small mod and alot of burst will do similarly against Dakini. Thats just the way the game works it has very little to do with Tarik or Fatality.

Its really not though. Theres no reason a unit should be in this situation and be your only option. You have any number of alternatives. Hell even Tarik in this hypothetical should be reasonably able to get up to BS 7 against this dakini.

 

That is completely incorrect.

If you take the same situation and apply it to a model without FAT2 their ability to win falls off hard. For example, Shang Ji Spitfire in a core link you go from 39-42% to 24-52%. If you give the Shang Ji Mimetism it's 28-42%. Please explain to me how you believe this is an example of similar performance.

I have watched these kinds of situations unfold on a regular basis where yes, he really shouldn't he should use an alternative play or more orders bringing a different model to bear, and yet he just goes for Tarik because he's gambling on the odds being decent enough, and if he rolls what he wants he gets a massive leg up in the turn because he didn't spend extra orders to get past a particular speed bump which means he can push the advantage off a lucky roll. It turns the game into a check sum of lands the crit and pushes his advantage, or eats bullets dies and puts himself behind.

There isn't any clever tactics or movement from either player here. It creates a brain dead situation where we chuck dice to fish for crits. I don't know about you but I find that Infinity is a better game when it isn't revolving around a particular model fishing for crits all the time.

As I said, FAT2 lowers the punishments for gambling and gamblers, well, they like to gamble.

 

I appreciate while you want to throw insults because you don't have much of a case to stand on, it doesn't change the fact that FAT2 enables this type of gameplay.

 

just because you have a ~30% chance doesn't mean its a good decision. just because other people have done it doesn't mean its a good decision. all this means is that 60-70% of the time you're wasting your order.

you can literally say this about mimetism, ODD, TO, ect.

getting crit is never fun. its not fun to crit or be crit. it usually isn't exciting. Much like symbiomates, you get to bypass rules of the game. Just like how Tohaa has practically no ARM stat to compensate for automatically bypassing ARM rolls, RTF will probably not have any exceptional mimetic/TO/ODD shooters and this is how they're compensated.

 

You're right if I take a unit with no rules and try and shoot a dakini link in the face at good range for them and bad range for me. I'll probably lose that fight. But if I do that I'm playing real bad and I definitely should be losing that fight.

If I take a unit with some rules and try and shoot a dakini link in the face at good range for them and bad range for me, I might win that fight. Though I really shouldn't be doing that in most cases. In most cases I want to stack my odds hard.

FAT2 will do it, MSV1/2/3, Marksmanship 2 will do it. Like I said try the same fight with a Riot Grrl or a Nisses you'll get roughly 30/30/30. And a Nisses or a Grrl will cost you a lot less than Tarik. Does MSV enable bad game play? what about Range modifiers?

 

If you need to spend 2 additional orders to fire smoke and allow Tarik to get closer into a good rangeband, to then shoot, statistically in that time period you're likely to also straight up win a firefight if you're shooting on 39-40% odds. Meaning, for these people, it's good enough to just say screw it and shoot..

All have counters unlike FAT2. And as has been previously demonstrated, none of which enable bad gameplay nearly as much as FAT2 does. Their ability to warp bad firefights in much, much smaller. They have a far lesser impact.

You are missing the point this has nothing to do with game balance, it's about the rule being stupid and enabling stupid game play. There is a difference there. I'm also not sure where you're going with trying to use symbiomates to excuse braindead game play, that doesn't really help your argument much given the discussion surrounding them either.

FAT2 should be good. However, it should not warp a bad firefight like that. Hence, it should be changed so it doesn't do that while remaining a valuable rule worth its points cost, whatever that is. You want FAT2 to be roughly as valuable in an equal fight as it is in a bad fight. Not causing 15% swings in bad fights while doing far less in good ones, what was it like a 3% swing in a good firefight?

Yes we both agree that they should do the whole setting up an optimal engagement, but as pointed out, because FAT2 gives them good enough odds they often don't. Which leads to BS4 crit fishing, which is brain dead gameplay. Which is bad.

 

You are quite candidly ignoring the complaint. The complaint isn't FAT2 increases your odds, like MSV or ODD or Marskmanship does.

It's that FAT2 heavily increases your odds only in bad firefights. ODD etc do not do this. They provide small changes. FAT2 is causing 10-15% swings in bad firefights which is causes ridiculous situations and encourages people, as discussed, to roll on stupid firefights because their odds aren't utterly terrible and creates bad gameplay.

Again, they don't care. Their mindset is 40% is good enough to roll on, and if I win on the first attempt I get a huge advantage of having 2+ more orders to kill things with and the main roadblocking ARO piece is gone.

And if they throw the game away with Tarik dieing on the first move? They don't care. That's what they do. It's not alot of fun for the other player though either way because the situation is utterly brain dead.

 

No it really doesn't they'll lose that fight more often than they win. The point is that it is a modifier on fights that is very comparable to other modifiers if you dont like FAT2 because it allows stupid people to do stupid things and maybe win. Then you really can't like MSV or similar either.

 

You're also a lot less likely to lose your 30-40 point model which, you know, must have some value.

FAT2 also has much less of an impact on reactive turns compared to mimetism or ODD. You're only affecting the 1 or 2 die you're throwing versus the usual 3 or 4 the opponent is throwing back at you. Next time you play, try noting each time mimetism or ODD makes your shot miss – I guarantee you its a lot more than you might think. It's because you usually do the math in your head before you roll instead of looking for 1s after like FAT2.

then why are you complaining? because somewhere at some point someone took a roll that was only 30% in their favor and won it? Maybe im a little confused on what you consider "brain dead" gameplay, or how it's defined. BS15 promotes me shooting you with my HMG, is that "brain dead" gameplay because my unit is pigeon holed into playing a particular role? Is a Fiday "brain dead" gameplay because he gets to start in the deployment zone and is good at CC?

 

Using MSV2 to counter ODD and kill the ODD model isn't a stupid move. That's what you're supposed to do with it.

Tarik shouting "YOLO SWAG 360 NOSCOPE CRIT" then rolling on BS4 is not what we're after.

Have you heard of suppressive fire? Again, causes a 10% swing for a model firing back at BS4.

 

Sorry so you're saying that a rule about shooting people in the face shouldn't make its user better at shooting people in the face? Or what? that I shouldn't be using a good shooty guy to shoot people in the face? It seems like the problem you have with this is an irrational fear of the crit part of this or are stuck on the idea that BS4 should never win a fight against a higher BS?

 

To put it simply.

Expending orders to maneuver into position with the correct models to engage in an favourable firefight is good gameplay.

Shouting "YOLO SWAG" and firing at BS4, and FAT2 egregiously inflating the effectiveness of that, is not good gameplay.

As you yourself have said, the idea is to create optimal or good firefights. Not to take bad ones. Taking a BS4 vs BS14 or 17 and attempting to ride it out with FAT2 is not what you want people to be doing. It creates a very boring game of either they crit and win or they throw away their stuff and lose. Again, brain dead.

It shouldn't win 39% of the time, it shouldn't win 32% of the time. In both situations, it should win far, far less than that and stop encouraging people to take these firefights.

 

Why though? Fatality is a skill that makes you better at shooting people in the face mostly in the active turn. On a very concrete level its no different than say something like ODD or Marksmanship or Total Reaction or Full Auto or MSV. All have specific uses and reasons to apply them and specific ways to play around them and counter act them. Some are more obvious (MSV vs. ODD) others require some more careful decision making.

 

Because as discussed, you don't want a rule encouraging people to just yolo swag roll it because it's inflating their odds of winning bad firefights far harder than anything else. It creates a very boring game if all they do is shoot at your crap without attempting to outmaneuver you and just try to ride their way through on FAT2 crits.

As you yourself have said, the idea is to create optimal or good firefights. Not to take bad ones. Taking a BS4 vs BS14 or 17 and attempting to ride it out with FAT2 is not what you want people to be doing. It creates a very boring game of either they crit and win or they throw away their stuff and lose. Again, brain dead.

It's like one of those high mid tier magic decks that are very obnoxiously easy to play and have low interactivity. They don't produce a particularly fun game, and in fact some archetypes produce down right boring games. Everyone knows they're not the best decks but that doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because they do good enough and they're not difficult or intensive to play, so people keep using them and they use them alot. At the same time though, for the other people who have to keep playing against them it's not very much fun for them.

The idea is for FAT2 to be good, but not produce crappy game play at the same time. As I said earlier, you want it to be roughly as effective in the bad firefights as it is in the good ones, not suddenly multiplying in effectiveness by magnitude of 5-10 when you're firing at BS4.

 

why argue? you're not going to change our minds and ours, yours. If you feel it's so unfair that your dakini MSR can't overwatch the whole board without being crit from 64 inches away why not just try and play around it? I don't know, adapt your strategy or deployment? or will you now claim that that's somehow impossible or also "brain dead"?

 

I feel like you should instead be inclined to do things like throw smoke to bypass it, Cautious move, use an AD/Infiltrator to engage at a closer range, stab it with a Fiday, use a long range option like a linked HMG or that Maggie.

I think you should do things to allow you to engage in a more favourable position and not just fire your damn guns at BS4 and look for crits. Just about anything else would qualify as not being brain dead gameplay.

 

so what? just because one guy has FAT2 all of these things are now invalidated or are obsolete?