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MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    Maybe lower the tone and talk about the Teuton instead of beating others.

    @daboarder what you said is making me think actually. I always compare Teutons to Santiagos or Hospitaliers and of course they look horrible under that light.

    But as CC Knights warband it could be quite fun. It's just too sad that the Haris Teuton doesn't have EXP ccw. But you can still use the Haris guy + 2 Magisters, or even Haris + EXP CCW + Magister.

    They are super expensive for a CC Haris in my opinion, because as I see it CC is only a marginal tool/deterrent. But use them to defend an objective room... And then I can see their value.

    The thing is we are talking about 82 points here at minimum... And to be honest the more I consider this option, the more I think the valuable troop here is the Magister. The Teuton is just the tax you have to pay to use them.

    PD: also the new Magister miniatures look ready to use their ranged weapons more than their swords... Why CB?? Why???
     
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  2. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    Its 94 points for the option with the order with magister + exp cc in there , 36+36 +22 for ap cc magister. 36+13+22 if you want to do a version with OS. Or you want to do 36+36+13 to do double teuton+ os. I think the sculpts for the magisters focus on their range weapons more because burst 3 light shotguns on 21s are still scarier to most units than the magister leaving cover with a full link to dog pile them. And the panzerfaust is still a great aro while linked for the magisters prize.

    They do miss the charm of the old running poses however.
     
  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Lol, classic internet101, arguing someones meta is "bad"

    Skoll maybe if you actually thought, and had a detailed argument that wasnt "Mah mans cant do this" and instead went into depth about the limitations on a BS14 platform armed with Combi rifle and Panzerfaust due to its limited Ammo and range then Id take your seriously.

    But as it stands your argument ammounts to "NAH UH!, doesnt work because a 4-4 2W unit cant possibly get into Base to Base"
    Despite the fact they do in games all the time around the world.

    You havent discussed nuance, detail or specifics youve just chucked the proverbial toys outta the sandpit then played the strawman "Your meta's bad"

    Show some actual tactical thought and youd be more likely to be taken seriously.
    While I agree CB should have streamlined the Tueton CCWs in the same manner as the rest of the knights and just given all the profiles an EXP CCW this is what we have.

    As to using them, Id fork out for the EXP CCWs and the Haris scoring.
    Support it with massed Sierra's and probably an OS+FKML defensive link and you have a tough angry haris with orders to push and punish what it hits.

    As to their role, if you want to go hunting units that are 1W CC specialists then sure magisters are better, though there is something to be said for garraunteed hits in this game as DTWs demonstrate.

    Tuetons are for ripping the heart out of the opponents army, Killing Avatars, massacring their way through HI pain trains and hunting units like Achillies. So yeah they clock in arouns 80-100 points for the haris. but thats for 6 wounds of GTFO where the opponent realistically cannot approach within striking range of that unit. Even a combi at B4 is going to be enough to push that harris into CC with something nasty once the opponent closes the gap.

    Hell even if you dont take the EXP CCW the AP CCW on the spitfire or the Haris has solid odds of one shotting every unit in the game when you get that haris into B2B and Bezerk at B3 AP
     
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  4. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    Boyo your argument was literally git gud. I replied originally with unit analysis, you just disregarded it with a lazy argument. Ive showcased that a single exp teuton is really fucking bad at dealing with the avatar before. He fares better against achilles (who is still likely to live mind you)

    But to counter your point. You are talking about bs 14 hi yes, however you have 1 set of panzer fausts at that bs (as exp ccw is missing them) and 1 at bs 12 , all of your long range options are disposable all your HI is arm 3. The linchpin of your gimmick is without stealth, which runs directly counter to the proliferation of mid field isolation and hacking mechanics.

    Its even more problematic if you intend to attack pain trains with the link, as they are bound to shoot you on the way in, and you are bound to trade your first teuton for the first piece you kill.

    Having such a short range haris with so many weaknesses, basically relies heavily on your opponent making mistakes.

    It is also such a hefty investment that you literally have to tool the rest of your list around the investment.

    I also challenge your claim of 8 inches of get the fuck out, pieces of the link are relatively weak and can be engaged piece meal by your opponent. The assault function on berserk is limited both by the magisters presence, and the fact that burst 2 cc 18 is not fantastic odds agaisnt many enemy aros, specially your aforementioned target of pain trains.
     
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  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I just cant be arsed to deal with this, Go act like a manchild elsewhere
     
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  6. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    that's a nice way of saying you dont have a counter point take your autism to 4chan where that behavior is tolerated.

    i'll be doing myself and you a favor and blocking you. I'd suggest you do the same, the quality of your posting has sharply deteriorated as of late.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    EDIT: Ah hell nevermind. @Skoll alright mate, lets both give this a final go shall we? without the dickwaving on both out parts.

    Look I like Tuetons and I think you can make them work these days, they operate to force your opponent to keep their heavy hitters and tough specialists away from an area and can really to considerable damage to them. While a single tueton has probably got fairly rough odds against the heaviest targets on its own. Once you add link bonuses (even just the extra burst of the haris) then they start coming into their own. The fact that you can buff their links with the Santiago's and Magisters adds a lot of extra bang for your buck and when you get multiple link members into CC with that heavy target the multiple burst you obtain really adds considerably to the power of their CC abillities (even if you dont Bezerk).

    Heres one way I would consider running "tuetons" currently, its built out of the principle of 6 man links which we have seen considerable increase in lately. with mixed links offering the opportunity to use the link defensively initially before pushing forwards.

    In this link the Tuetons role is to act as a mid to late game midfield threat and ARO presence for the link after the ML has gone down. Additionally the Evo helps to limit the vulnerability of the Tuetons to hacking by buffing their BTS to a comfortable 9 over the 3/6 of the magisters.

    Scoring and LT limitations of the MO are adressed through the inclusion of the Lt Santiago who also opperates as the links big gun and allows them to push with the sepulchre able to act as additional deterent with Holo2, and offering extra scoring an LOL potection with CoC.

    Its a list with more limited long range opportunity, but the has enough oomph in the linked ML and panzerfausts (and whatever Head play the Sepulchre gets to pretend to be) that it should reasonably be able to advance into the midfield or further where it can do considerable damage

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36)
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)
    KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52)
    MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    3.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #407 daboarder, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  8. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Hey bros, what do you think about Spit NCO Teuton full pain train?

    Its kinda hammering when facing a BS 17 5 shots from angry German with Berserk.
     
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  9. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    The NCO order is nice, but Im of the opinion the santiago spitfire is the better option in a pain train due to specialist option and additional tool set, and retaining stealth across the link. Those EM grenades are amazing in a pinch
     
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  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Honestly, I agree here.

    Additionally your Lt is likely going to be something using its LT order to effect the game, Either being one of the Joan variants, or an active LT supported by the Sepulcher CoC
     
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  11. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    That's not what I said. No way I'd put an OS in that link. The idea is having hard as nuts Haris inside of an objective room or similar. So that would be Haris Teuton + 2 Magisters DA CCW (82 points). The combination of hard hitting CC, shotguns and high CC + hyperdynamics is what I'm talking about. All in a closed space would make it difficult to scrape them out.
     
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  12. Koni

    Koni BanHammer
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    @daboarder & @Skoll

    I'm politely asking you to stop posting that way, please.


    Thank you.
     
  13. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Because we've been complaining about the knights waving the gun in one direction and the sword in the other for ages, considering they are still primarily shooting units. Storing Konstantinos, Sepulchre, FK, Black Friar and LE Joan so that their swords don't get bent all the time while also trying to fit HMG Nisse and Aquila in the same box with their coats is annoying. And don't even get me started on trying to position those models in Cover.
    I was definitely one of the people insanely envious of the LE Crane's pose and glad new Hospitallers and Magisters are shown using the weapons they are more likely to actually use.
     
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  14. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    Boring.


    EDIT: Sorry. I mean, come on, they are more difficult to put in the foam, but that's not what I think about when I buy miniatures and spend hours painting them.

    At least in my case, I got into MO because of the Sepulchre Knight with his threatening pointing sword and flying cape, and the Santiago Knights running as if they're in the middle of an intense boarding.

    And those miniatures are the reason I always played Santiagos and not Hospitaliers. Actually I consider the new Hospitaliers to have boring poses, but that's kinda ok with me because I see them more as a long range troop compared to the Santiagos and that's it. But in the case of the Magisters is a bit painful. I know the day will come when I field my old Santiagos in a link along the new Magisters, and I think it will look weird that the former are the more impetuous looking in comparison.
     
    #414 Titus, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  15. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    My bad, i was under the impression you were trying to leverage the exp ccw profile
     
  16. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    @Skoll you should already get used to listening "it's not your list..." and defenders of every unit, whatever the price/loadout for it may be...
    But why play knights then? Swords are one of defining features. I never had problems with bending swords, I use magnets.
    If your opponent is not a dick, you can always agree on the actual model position.
    New magisters look really boring and static, there is no way I would say that they are extremely impetuous with hyper dynamics. And also that panzerfaust, I can't look at it without my eyes bleeding.
    I also really love old santiagos and their movement poses, that is one of the reasons why I field them.
     
    #416 TaHu, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  17. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    I usually position the model backwards. It's rare that a model has issues with both it's front AND back arc, and then there's no argument about where the LoF arc is, since I can still use the marks on the base.
     
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  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Crud, I created an RP character because of the original Santiago Spitfire! (a Mandalorian in a Star Wars game, but still)

    But I also really like the older Magisters over the new ones. The newer, CAD-sculpted models are so much less dynamic it's a crime.
     
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  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Thing is though, In infinity, the exact pts cost of a unit matters very very little to the effectiveness of a unit due to the order system and the specific cost of each order as well as the way the pieces go together with only so much variation.

    What is far more imporant is that each unit has a defined role and a unique purpose both in options available to the army and more specifically within the list it is taken in.

    Take the Tueton list below for example.
    Even if we are as generous as we realistically could be and took the stance that the Tuetonic knights are a massive 4 pts each overcosted, what would this list gain with an additional 8 pts available to it?
    The answer is really, nothing, we'd barely be hitting the minimum for a single additional order, one which would then make the list vunrlerable to being stripped of 2 orders at the start....for a flashpulse sniffer bot or a baggage bot that we wouldnt really using to its maximum effectiveness given the list doesnt have sensor in its other parts (nore does it need it) and that the baggage is already covered by the EVO present in the list.

    Now you might be able to argue that the list would be more effective with an extra palbot for the machinist and a warcor or techbee. But not only would that again leave the list with pts unspent but the warcor/techbee would again make the list vulnerable to stripping.

    As such it should be clear that the pts are really a minimal part of the puzzle, the bigger issue is what role the tuetons fill. and with the changes to the links what we get are "Heavy warbands" that are able to drag the lighter but less range proficient "Light Warbands" around with them in the form of Magisters. Additionally, with the magisters trailing with the tuetons the full link and the haris as a whole are cheaper, without having to sacrifice the punch that having the tueton in the link provides. And there are undeniably targets in the game where a Magister, even at B3 for Haris allies in B2B will be worse at dealing with than a Zerking Tueton with B3, AP or EXP CCW aside. The tueton then fills the role of heavy Hitter in the list that is able to garrauntee the kill Vs other CC specialists whereas the magisters are able to bully down effectively in CC and with their shotguns without trading wounds for kills the way the tuetons will.

     
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You know, as one of the guys who probably said "It's not your list..." the most, there are still some models that are priced very strangely, or just flat poorly.

    Even the Zuyong I considered overpriced by a couple points for a Core fireteam, for example, and Symbiomates are too cheap at almost any price (if they were 10-15 points they might be balanced, but I still think that's too low). The Guijia TAG is also not competitively priced. Bolts are the PanO crowd's favorite whipping boy, but I still think most of that is due to how non-PanO their build is. The Pheasant is another example of poor ability stacking for a lot of points.

    Nevermind the weapons or rules that are poorly priced. SMGs seem to be too cheap by a good 5 points. ARM is very costly, when it does very little for you in game. Mimetism (IIRC) is very cheap, and should not be cheaper than ARM.
     
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