Hi there, I would like to pick your brain regarding this topic...I have been thinking about it quite often. There are some armies with quite obvious Attack pieces. Things with camo in all it's forms, with high RoF weapons, more than 1 wound, etc. For instances, a HMG Spetznaz is quite obvious and a very efficient attack piece, a TAG, a heavy armour model, a Hsien with Visor, armour and a good weapon, etc. Regarding OSS, I don't think it's so easy. There are a couple of obvious ones like the MArut, Asura, you could say that those with high SWC weapons are also obvious, Deva spitfire, Yadu HMG, Zayin... but they are really NOT that efficient, I believe, comparing with things with heavy armour, or Camo's etc. Example, Yadu with HMG is really nice, it's NCO even, but looking at face to face... armour 3, 1.5 wounds and that's it, so no real way to add negative mods, or positive mods. The same for the Deva. The Zayin is nice but not SUPER effective. We could say the best one is the Dakini with HMG and mimetism, but it's a line trooper, BS11, we have to rely on support and enhancements. Then we have our camo's and TO's, but they usually don't have high ROF weapons. Combi's or SMG's, Snipers, Rifles. So considering all of this, what do you guys consider attack pieces in OSS? Or what have you been using as attack pieces? For me at least apart from a couple obvious ones...it's not easy to figure it out. Are you using the Nagas as attack pieces? the Dakini? Dart? Andromeda? ;)
Andromeda exists in OSS solely because they try to force sales, she's the only melee option in the sectorial and there are some melee objectives in the classified deck. She's not an attack piece. I'd say the best option is the humble Dakini HMG. Two of those costs one point more than the Yadu NCO (which is herself useless in a sectorial where SWC is a premium AND the only Ltn2 are 70+pts Asuras, who are themselves going to use the order...), and you can fill them in a Fireteam with a Samekh for special ammo and ranges, a Deva AHD and a last Dakini (Paramedic, for example, for that extra objectives achievement); add the Apsaras to buff those 3 Dakinis and the Samekh (the Samekh wants more the other remotes to get nº2, though... not that the +1BS is bad on itself). The Shakti + Rudra + Asura is a good Death Star... sadly it's half the list. Dart is another assault piece, with her E/M grenades and ARO options, ideal for hunting enemy camos. Addin: Arjunas are superb against heavy enemy units that can be brought down with E/M, thanks to her bots AND mines: dodge or reset, you are screwed! Sadly they are kinda of "autokill" and thus discourage the use of troops vulnerable to that shenanigans. Don't fear using them against YJ, though, they have to pay for those 26 orders in vanilla! XD
One of my main and most reliable assassin is the FO naga. He has killed many things from line troopers to elite (the last i recall is Armand), and has murdered several fireteams (antipersonnal mines are SO nice). You should not be afraid of a lack of modifiers or armor: situation is the most important factor. During your active turn, if you can pin an enemy out of cover and in his bad range with your good range, you are already in a very favorable situation, modifiers or not. This is something every naga or dasyu can do, thanks to infiltration and camo state that allows to find a good line of fire. This is also why i like the rudras. Sure, rudras does not have any visual mod. But with climbing+, high speed, nice weapons, and assisted fire, this nice assault remote is able to kill many things. And for the same reason, i'm not that sold on putting it in an haris as it may restrict its mobility. Here are the maths for the naga vs Armand: naga in the 20-40 cm band, from higher ground (thus no cover for Armand). Armand may have ODD and negate CH with his MSV1, he is still in a very bad situation. Spoiler Active Player 52.63% Nagas inflicts 1 or more wounds on Armand 'Le Muet' (MSV 1) (Unconscious) 14.19% Nagas inflicts 2 or more wounds on Armand 'Le Muet' (MSV 1) (Dead) Failures 35.37% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 12.00% Armand 'Le Muet' (MSV 1) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Nagas (Unconscious) 5.28% Armand 'Le Muet' (MSV 1) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Nagas (Dead) Thus, there is no best attack piece: every troop may win in some situations and fall in others. Marut and spitfire asura are rather brute force troops that should be used when you can't find any other openings and face high visual modifiers. These are situations where nothing can have perfect odds, but they are sturdy enough that they can take a hit, and good enough that these odds will still be good enough to even try. Yadu, Mk.4 and dakini HMG are nice basic long range attack pieces. They will perform very well provided they can fight only one troop at once and use their full burst. They may fail if they don't have sight of the target and have to move in the middle - the yadu is a bit better for that since he is unhackable. The deva MSV2 is a good mid range attack piece that will murder every CH or ODD troop. He is very vulnerable to shock weaponry through, and must be used with caution. All nagas and dasyus are good at finding unexpected line of fire. Dart too of course, she's the most specialised toward killing of all of our SK. Flanking, attacking from a high position, that sort of things. They can make good use of mines to threaten packed troops (put a mine, then show yourself and fire at the troop, either he shoot back and eat the mine, or dodge and eat the bullets). rudras are a special case since this is more an heavily armored shooter like the yadu and the mk.4, but can also set up mine tricks, and find alternate lines of fire thanks to climbing+. Use it if your opponent like to hide things (ex. prone line trooper lieutenant on a roof ...) And we have garudas, our trusty AD remotes. They can be a bit hard to use well, but they can totally murder an ill-prepared opponent. They work very well with our long range shooters, these one clean a lane for the garuda to enter and flank.
OS seem pretty good at having quite distributed power, with most troopers being reasonably effective, rather than 2-3 extremely competent rambos backed up by a bunch of spods. All the above mentioned are solid, if not pinnacle, attack pieces usually able to win through weight of fire and decent BS rather than stacking modifiers. Arjuna are also pretty neat with mimetism, a Marksman rifle, and being able to start that little bit further up the board. Their Kiranbots also scare a lot of enemy attack pieces, especially if you make their E/Marats lethal by giving them Shock ammo via Marksmanship.
Dasyu Boarding Shotgun or Combi Rifle can be surprisingly destructive. Also, don't forget Garuda Spitfire / HMG. You pay a lot* for questionable utility of AD, but you can drop them in in your half of the table, put supportware (maybe advance a Lamedh close to them to provide repeater coverage). It's BS12 to Dakinis 11, it has Mimetism, and 15-10 move is an amazing asset. *frankly, if you want to play OS, get used to paying more than other factions for equivalent items.
Yea, those Posthumans are damn expensive! (also Dakini's are not exactly super expensive when you compare them to other LI)
It's so sad they don't have superjump. BTW, even the "small" garuda BSG is very good, yet very cheap.
... There is only so much you can excuse by shouting "But Posthumans". Go back under your bridge, troll. Dakinis are okay, but look at so many other things. In particular, I invite you to consider the pricing of Daoying Lt2 (both vanilla and sectorial) compared to pricing it on Asura. Or just enjoy the price of our Missile Launcher Samekh. ============= Okay, back to non-troll posts. @Nenyx is quite correct, BSG Garuda is quite effective and surprisingly cheap (probably because it was priced back when Aleph wasn't the hated stepchild), and I highly recommend her. I was merely discussing the more SWC-heavy options in this case.
I thought that was established that CB dropped ball on this one ? (and decided in their eternal wisdom not correct it) (like they did 'correct" Sucker Punch) Blah, blah. It's still gives you like 10 pts discount (if taken Mk2 +<whatever>) so would guess that Asura Lt2 cost is somewhat mitigated (even if it's strange that she gets that).
I think the problem I have is that I try to overcompensate in Aro pieces and attack pieces. I find myself trying to do lists with Rudra, Dart, Nagas, PH mk2 Sniper, Dakini Sniper Dakini HMG, Zayin...etc etc, all put together and I know I can't possibly fit everything. The questions I find myself with are things like: is theDakini link and a Zayin enough? Should I have Mk2, Zayin, Dakini Sniper as ARO? Too much? Should I have some attack pieces and then add couple of Nagas? In that case should 1 of those Nagas count as a attack piece? etc etc
I wouldn't be so rigid on definitions of "Attack" and "ARO" pieces, remember the saying: "ARO pieces are like sex toys, anything can be one if you try hard enough" Zayin? That's a fast attack piece climbing plus HMG that ignores cover, it's also a useful defensive tool with proper placement TO sniper? Perfect aggressive piece for taking out enemy Totes Remotes by giving them -12 to shoot back, also great for surprise unopposed DA AROs to the face. Dakini MSR? Wonderfully flexible, on the attack it's statistically very close to the HMG in most situations, brings anti-materiel be Stun ammo too, also a powerful ARO piece. Dakini HMG? Aggressive high burst damage dealer for pushing out of your DZ, but also an ARO roadblock stacking cover, mimetism, Suppressive Fire, and Marksmanship 2. TO BSG: Drop an unexpected Template over a link team in ARO, bonus points if you do it on their second Move, but also a brilliant CQB attacker with a weapon that can threaten pretty much anything.
Note that many troops can be both ARO and attack pieces. For example the zayin is first and foremost an ARO piece, thanks to total reaction. But, even if it is not as strong as a linked HMG dakini, and even a lone HMG dakini (because it does not have mimetism), it can still be used as an attack piece. And it has climbing+, which may surprise the opponent. The reason i like the FO naga is because he is very flexible. As an attack piece, it is not that strong. He has just a combi rifle, some mines, an average BS and a standard camo. But it is more than enough if you choose your target well. But, it can also work as a specialist (obviously) for objectives, and can work as a nice speedbump. When you are done with him, either put him in suppressive fire, or just in cover and use his whole arsenal (mines to slow down specialists, combi to kill weak things, flashpulse to stop strong things) So i think that this is more a matter of how you are using the tools you have at that moment, and not just see your troops as pure attacker or pure defender.
Surprisingly RAW valid, since the E/Marat lacks all the traits that negate the use of Marksmanship N1. I wouldn't be surprised if they correct it, however... The Daoying Lt2 in vanilla is a mistake, now it only takes for CB to notice it... (21 pts camo Lt who also gives 2 Lt orders... and then there is the Mowang... Easy to make a 20+ orders in Vanilla YJ). So I'm shoehorned into picking Posthumans all the time, no thanks. Also, I find quite strange that the "new" posthumans are, in fact, not posthumans at all... Because they lack Remote Presence AND they have a Cube!!! Dart and the Apsaras are just posseurs!!! XD
I was referring more to the fact Daoying pays nothing to get Lt2, compared to 2 points on Asura. And yeah, 2 points on Asura is almost irrelevant - I was using it merely as an indication on how CB seems to price Aleph vs rest of the game. You are "shoehorned" into picking some Posthumans, in the same sense NCA is "shoehorned" into picking Fusiliers (even less so, since Posthumans have so much diversity and you don't need to pick the same thing). Posthuman is not a single troop type you need to take always.
And if you think well about it a Post Human never costs "just" 10pts ... 3 PH can cost around let's say 50 something when you add the 2 netrods to compensate for the lack or orders, they are actually around something like 18 to 20 something points for each. Not exactly but you get my drift. Getting back on topic. Thank you guys for your inputs. I think I reached a base list to try on and keep trying. Most of my problem is that I still don't play very well so having an HMG won't help me if I don't know how to play it :) But your advice reassured me of a couple of things.
To be fair, that difference is between the Lt1 and Lt2 Asura, not between the non Lt and Lt Asura (which is none), while the Daoying has no Lt1 option as evidenced by him retaining Lt2 in Vanilla (poor, poor soul... I weep for its unfortunate circumstance. Sarcasm mode off now). Yeah, the most recent pet project gets all the shiny stuff. Apparently it is, if everybody complains we use them all the time... but we can even play using Morat Vanguards with a Yaogat Haris to support the mighty Sogarat Feuerbach FA2 + Raktorak! Everything is balanced and fair in this game! XD Incidentally, Mk3, mk4 (HMG) and mk5 (SMG+E/M grenades) are great attack pieces, and the Mk1 (doctor) is a great, self-sufficient mission achiever (the engineer can cover some more, but can't heal herself), and the mk4 is a beast for ARO duty (to burn enemy orders, that is, since the menace of fire templates is great).
I'm so sorry, but i gotta post this one Spoiler: PAIGE NO Sorry again, back to your scheduled interesting strategy talk
