Literally the guy I'm quoting is both denying and underselling it.. Also, yes the +2points for +2 CC is ridiculous, I fully agree.
Hahaha! Touché! Spoiler: Off topic: Honest answer Honestly, yes I think they have but he's still not convinced me. Perhaps it's because I mostly play Vanilla and I see no justification for him when I have the Guilang next to me. :) Surpringsly, after a few games I'm starting to like both the Zencha and the Haidao much better than the Mowang. The Mowang is fucking akward to fit into a list. If I want a high ARM gunfighter with visual mods, I'll just pay 8 points more for a much better Hac Tao.. If I want a midfield bruiser that flanks the enemy with a Spitfire... then Su-Jian is much better and more resilient. I tried the Haidao on a mission that has 16" deployment and he's actually quite hilarious when ever he kills stuff... ultimately he's rarely worth so many orders but can be fun once in a while.
0/10 trolling ba acting like the person making a valid point is a troll. Time for le greentext maymays for you? Goddamn the levels of delusion here scare me sometimes. But you got me to reply, so you get 1/10 I guess :)
Hospitaller/Magister: The only thing it lost wasn’t the panzerfaust (and even then that is a pretty hefty loss of ARO power), the link gained a weaker member the does not have stealth, and functions as a weakpoint and anchor for the entire link. In addition, the magisters could be delivered up field with the hmg and then turn 2 or 3 you could let them take advantage of extremely impetuous for order efficiency. Something the link can’t do anymore, and it is significantly weaker for it. Teutons: Both new loadouts are “useful” but comparatively super mediocre, and gained no new equipment. NCO is also subpar compared to tactical awareness. Really odd to only get the one new rule, at this point im like screw it, I’d have paid 47 points for a full auto 2 teuton spitfire to function as a decent solo piece, because visual modifiers seem to be an increasingly needed requirement to make a competent gunfighter. Hell I’d have paid 50 points for it. Order sgt links: I am thankful that father knights and santiago’s can join the link, black friar I feel is more of a take it or leave it situation. Chain of command: on a model more expensive than your lt. feels kind of like a joke. After all the issue before was paying for an expensive lt. yet not wanting to use it in case you lost him, so instead now you pay for a 56 point chain of command so your 43 point lt can as aggressive as he wants? Am I the only one that finds that odd? Konstantinos could have ended with chain of command, which would have been cool and interesting. Magister core: is cool, in the fact that you can wildcard santiagos in, by itself is just kind of alright. Teuton core: the height of mediocrity, 0/10 would not take. Literally take hospitaller core for cheaper than full teuton core or Santiago led magisters for better options. Seraph and tikbalang, I am happy about. Can I argue the sectorial is weaker now? I could, I feel I’d be reaching for some points, but I could. However I feel like arguing that it got stronger is also reaching for points, and basically looking at it through beer goggles. The sectorial got a sidegrade, which comes off as noticeably MEH when compared to TAK, IA and Varuna. I know I’m replying late, but I could only view thread from phone all weekend, and ill be damned if I was typing all of this on my phone.
You can still deliver them up the field in a link, and break it once they're in position unless I'm missing something. Sure there won't be an HMG anymore, but the Spitfire is almost as nice, and the Teuton wants to be in the middle of the field in a way the HMG does not. I think you're looking at it wrong. I would expect to hide the KotHS as something weak like an OS anyway, and CoC is just a bonus on top of all the fun that is Holo2. I understand people don't like Holo2, or feel he's over costed, but the price didn't go up that significantly, and ignoring the rest of the model as just CoC is a mistake. He's good on his own, now you have more options, and a fall back plan. Which Teuton core? Depending on your options it's very possible to build a 5 man unit that's cheaper than Hospitallers. An OS + cheap Magister + cheap Teutons (2/121) is going to be cheaper than OS + Hospitallers (2/145). Also Panzerfaust + Combi is stronger than just Combi for just a few more points. B2 Panzerfaust is not a dreadful answer to "How do I shoot out of DZ"? Hospitallers: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) 2 SWC | 145 Points Open in Infinity Army Teuton core: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 3 ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39) 2 SWC | 121 Points Open in Infinity Army
Not with same link. You need someone outside the link to clear your way (you know those linked ML/MSR/HRL/Q-Drone).
that's the thing, in the majority of boards you need the HMG to deliver them to the midfield, more often than not you arent going to start in the spitfire's good range, or wont be able to achieve it without leaving cover. Being burst 5 on 11s with a spitfire is not a particularly impressive way to shoot out of the deployment zone. As far as the teuton being in the midfield, the spitfire says that sure, but the lack of stealth on HI , the AP CCW combined with the berserk for some reason, screams leave me on the shelf. Im not complaining about the cost of chain of command on top of the cost of the sepulcher, im pointing out that the point of chain of command is often to be a negligible increase on top of your lt. so that you can use your lt. aggressively. The sepulcher is a poor platform for that , hell the sepulcher is overall just a poor platform. Pretending you are another model rarely serves any purpose for him as he doesnt have a deadly aro piece, and people will become suspicious of any unassuming piece you start moving up the board. I was comparing full teuton core vs full hospitaller core. But lets take a look at your last link, you can instantly improve it by using a santiago as a wildcard in that link, which for 4 points buys you stealth on your knight, em grenades, d charges, a DA close combat weapon and specialist operative. not even mentioning the 360 visor and .5 less swc.
You see, I think the Supulchre requires a slightly different thought process. The Sepulchre actively rewards you for getting your lieutenant killed in some ways, which sounds counter intuitive, but enables you to shift your attack vector. I like the fact that it means when my Lieutenant goes down, I have another strong attack piece, that also has a lieutenant order that I can use freely.
Maybe we're playing different opponents, but I don't always have to shoot out of the DZ. Anyway, thanks for the explanation, makes a bit more sense. I agree the AP CCW is puzzling on a CC trooper, I'd expect DA, or EXP. However I think you're selling the rest of the profile short. The Spitfire probably isn't going to be getting in CC that much. I think you're going to be using your LT aggressively regardless with this sectorial, too many points otherwise, and you'll want to use that LT order somehow. The real question is insurance or no insurance. I remember the last discussion, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. Pretending to be something else will definitely cause people to go after something else, which is very useful on a CoC model. As for moving around unassuming pieces, nobody blinks when you move a specialist, no matter how lowly. So Engineer, Doctor, FO, or Paramedic are all good things to pretend to be. Okay, but why would you want to run a full core of either one? You're going to put in models that are just filler for the link bonus, so the OS is usually going to be the better option. Even if you do build a full link the differences in prices is pretty small. A lot of which is situational, but the NCO is almost guaranteed to be used, depending on the list you build. The Santiago is very nice, but I was attempt to compare on points, and I had no idea what you considered a "Full Teuton core", and honestly still don't.
That's basically the same situation between Santiago and Father Knight (and especially Lts), but with Santigo costing less 7 less points and 1 less SWC +1. What I like about new KotHS is that both Spitfire Sepulchres have their own well-defined niches, and are able gunfighters who also can deliver themselves in their favoured range by using the cover of Holoechoes, as well as tanking the mines effectively. While he's still overpriced compared to infamous Ayyar, at least it's either order efficient in FD version or a safety belt in CoC version. I'd wish them to be able to join links like Hafzas (it would be incredibly fun to have your opponent find out that one of your linked "order generators" is a freaking knight perfectly able to shoot in spitfire range unlike that combi OS he was supposed to be) Alternatively, what else our most elite knights would deserve: - A nice movement value like 6-2 to get out of deployment zone quicker (especially on CoC) - Strong ARO option would also make him better at doing this "surprise, m***r!" sticks - Some interesting equipment like X-Visor or E/M ammo on LGL version, DTW to deal with those infiltrators (and put his WIP to some good use, too) - Mk12 instead of Breaker Combi rifle, or something that allows him to push forward
I am not selling the rest of the profile short, it is short. Even if he wasnt supposed to get into CC that much you are still paying the points for it, all for the ability to be mediocre with it should the situation come up. that isnt the real question, you are basically manipulating the situation to make the choice more appealing than it is. Instead of paying for say santiago lt and sepulcher CoC to sit in the back, you can pay for Joan lt and regular santiago spitfire. That way you hold no fear of your lt going down in a blaze in the midfield, with the added benefit of Joan being a better lt. The problem is if you are pretending to be those pieces the ruse is not going to last very long as soon as your opponent has a turn and starts hunting down your order pool or specialists to deny you the ability to fulfill the mission. It is also strange for pano to move those pieces in the opening stages of the game. You run full link of HI because you also want your filler to be moderately useful unless you are literally going an orc +4 fusilier route. The lone order sgt in a HI link actually functions as a weakspot that is easy to exploit. Of the benefits the santiago posses , stealth alone is more useful and less situational than NCO in a mid field HI piece. 360 visor is also an outstanding defensive skill, and D charges fulfill classifieds. Not to mention DA weapon for cracking open doors or destroying objectives. EM grenades as one of the deadliest counters to HI links. @Firellon while that is correct, the Father Knight can at least boast better defensive stats than the santiago and better CC against non cc specialists. I have to disagree with holo echoes being a viable delivery mechanism, it is useful for clearing mines I will give you that, but the spitfire is useful merely by hopefully starting in his preferred rangeband . As far as capable gun fighter, at the end of the day the sepulcher is a very vanilla and standard gun fighter. there is a huge proliferation of mimetism or odd + bs 13 gun fighters nowadays, that simply blow the sepulcher out of the water, specially for his hefty cost. Santiago and Hospitallers get to get away with lack of negative modifiers by being linkable and adding the burst advantage as well as the extra BS to cancel the negatives. Whereas the sepulcher finds itself in a relatively awkward spot, where he cost as much as the most premium of heavy infantry, but derives a lot of the cost from a very gimmicky piece of equipment . Where skills like full auto, odd, mimetism, fatality l2 or even msv1 and 2 would have helped either gun fight vanilla troops better or engage those models with modifiers better, holo echo sort of lets him clear mines.
Yeah, I think Military Orders got better to play because more things are "viable". But it got that at the expense of having the high end competitive options cut away, which means I doubt we'll see MO place well at any major events any time soon. MO will be more fun to play, and more flexible, but it's certainly not got the razor-sharp edge it once had either.
I still think that you miss a point about the power of the KotHS : make the deployment of your opponent a mess and punish him for this. Yes, the gimmick might last one turn, but that's enough. If by this, your opponent think that you're hidding a TOFOOS or there is a Crusader waiting, his deployment and first turn if he begins won't be the same as he will think that you're not liying to him. Even with the FD L2, you can pretend to be a KotHS with LGL and force him to scatter his guys and lighten the defensive net because any of the three guys you deployed could be the right one. And bad luck, the KotHS was carrying a Spitfire. And if he anticaptes this, he might decide to just leave you the middle of the table to not lose to many troops. Use it to capture early in the game some objectives and force him to come all the way from the DZ. There is a lot of uses to Holo 2 and not all of them are just about winnign FtF. He needs a lot of pratice but I never have been deceived by the old one and the new one is just better.
I need to learn how to use him to do that. Coming from a nomad background, I was always spoilt for mid table control, but it's something I know I need to learn. I think Mo's competitiveness will depend a lot on the mission type in tournaments. I suspect heavy button pushing will.be difficult, but direct action will remain pretty strong. Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Just an example so you can understand what I'm saying : I played this list in last season (I know it is a SoF list, it is just an example): PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 4 2 KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) AQUILA HMG / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 62) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39) YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) 6.5 SWC | 297 Points Open in Infinity Army But I told to my opponent that I was playing this : PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 4 2 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) AQUILA HMG / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 62) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39) YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) YUAN YUAN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) KAMAU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) 4.5 SWC | 230 Points Open in Infinity Army And, like you, he had seen the big lack of points that could be a Swiss Guard ML. Nobody, strictly nobody suspected a KotHS to be there with a Croc Man. So they deployed considering a Swiss Guard was here and I used this to my advantage by mining the entrance of the buildings my opponents were hiding in their troops, took the civvies with my Croc-Man freely, etc. I would never say it is easy. I have sometimes hard time to lure my opponent as you have to behave so your opponent thinks the way you need him to think. That's why it request a lot of practice. It's even harder against opponents who knows you like playing the knight but it is also the best way to make it works against anybody.
MO only really performed well in killy tournaments, particularly Limited Insertion ones, where you could go full Joan. That part hasn't changed, in fact it got better now that you can drop a Santiago into it as well or use a Sepulchre for the rare times Joan dies. For all the other scenarios KHD Santiago and linkable FK made the sectorial better for competitive. In fact with an OS link improved there's a reason to take a TAG for those TAG-specific missions, something MO was famously awful at before. Especially with the tasty new HMG Seraph.
