That's nearly what really costs the Hospitaller HMG without Frenzy. As you can see, the Frenzy bonus is just huge (about 10 points cheaper as if it wouldn't have Frenzy). While you can feel it in Vanilla, in MO it is very easy to don't feel it. So, I think it is fair to have to pay much for cheerleaders as we have strictly free points to field our HIs compared to ORCs.
Not actually correct. Defersen pays for wip 14 which is expensive, he pays for cc22 and ma3. Assault hacking device (which is also expensive as hell) and probably some cost in his upgrade programs, in addition to there probably being a silly cost to his templar ccw The frenzy discount is probably 5-6 points or maybe less. Once you get to impetuous and extremely impetuous you are probably looking at 10 points or more
Which would mean that Hospitaller without Frenzy would cost the same price as ORCs while being way better? I don't think so.
Frenzzy and Religous Troop discost points. Think about SSA, all this ODD on 2 "Wounds" profiles are too much cheaper. The reason is because The Frenzzy.
I was thinking about using a OS + auxbot to protect the OS fireteam, and later join it if necessary when the sniper is dead or something like that. Then I realised he is a SPEC. Sergeant. I'm really hating Spec. Sergeants more and more
Just to fix a few wrong pieces of information here. No one has an accurate formula other than CB so we can only get so close however: 1. WIP and BTS scales linear, each point always costs a single point (so it's rather cheap). DeFe being very expensive next to a Hospitaler is largely due to Frenzy and his AHD. Frenzy gives a rather massive discount on the base troop Profile, but not on weapons or gear beyond that. WIP13 DeFe with MA2, CC21 and no AHD should cost about 47. HMG is 2 points over a Spitfire so that would be 49. so Frenzy on that chassis saves you about 10 points, which is rather ridiculous. 2. Religious is a free skill. OS are 3 points over Fusiliers for 2CC 1 WIP. No rebate, no cost, just free. 3. Some Skill levels are free over their base version. MA2 for instance should be the same cost as MA1. MMS L2 weirdly enough seems to be a free upgrade over L1 (which is rather huge). 4. Some stats like ARM, PH and BS get more expensive the more you have. PH14, ARM4 and BS14 are about 3 points each. That's pretty much the main reason Orcs suck so bad when put next to a Zuyong.
before the current discount, a hospitaller without frenzy would have been 47 points. and MA 1 is really cheap. I dont know why hospitallers got re-costed and orcs didnt
I don´t remember when o where I read, but I almost sure that some one of staff say that now Religious Troop discost point. I imagine since N3, becasue the contra-courage obligation and because Retreat now is only 25% of list.
G: Sync is a skill that the Auxbot has, not the OS. Once the Auxbot is out, that OS should be free to join coordinated orders or fireteams... If he could join any fireteams that's it.
I think so, yeah. Morats mostly actually pay for a variety of other stats. Like, the Vanguard is 14pts, which is the PH 12 and CC 14 over an Alguacile, and the Veteran part of the Morat rule. The religious part is basically free on top.
It's hard tobsay because it doesn't appear outwardly consistent. I don't think cc+ph is that costly. See: mobile brigada v. Suryat. Maybe they round up sometimes lol
Can we just agree that formula either do not exist, is hand adjusted or it also takes designer mood and phase of the moon into account ?
No. Because there is no reason to roll dice for pointcosts the way GW does, when you can make up a new condition in the formula you created yourself to do the exact same thing if you need it to. It just doesn't make sense to abandon what's already there when you can do everything you want with it anyway. Nope. See OS example above.
I was just trying to be funny. They could select point costs by having a drunk hobo shoot a potato gun at some wall with numbers, for all I care. If the game works, it works. They could hand adjust it or not. It's very common in formula outputs to have an adjustment because sometimes the formula isn't perfect and it doesn't make sense to stick with something that has evidence saying it's not a good idea. I don't think religious is always free. It appears free on plenty of troops. It doesn't appear free on others. But i use the word "appears" very intentionally. Stares in Morat.
Given that Suryats cost 2pts more than MBs, and have +3BTS, Veteran L1 and CC 16 instead of PH14, I'm not really persuaded their cost is out next to the MB.
Alright, I have to admit, that helps to bear with MO changes, thank you! Nonetheless, there are quite some things to discuss. Let's start with Lt problem. Current Lt options are: Leutenants ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 9 DE FERSEN Lieutenant Spitfire / Pistol, Templar CCW (AP + Shock). (2 | 56) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) FATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 45) FATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Spitfire / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 50) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 34) 7 SWC | 413 Points Open in Infinity Army That is technically 9 options in total, but let us be frank: absolutely nobody is going to ever take Teuton Lt, since the guy has a ridicuolus1 SWC tax in the sectorial about HI that is very, very hungry for SWC. After that, we can split remaining Lts in 2 groups: 1) Assault / Frontline Lt - should be the guy with a big gun (read: Spitfire), also preferably in a fireteam for increased stats and protection. You should seriously consider bringing along Knight of the Holy Sepulchre Chain of Command if you're bringing one of those. In this category: De Fersen Spitfire (56 / 2) - solid, but expensive choice. No Frenzy discount, no actual Lt skills, can link only with Hospitallers (though can go solo rather well since he's both a heavy hitter and specialist piece). MA L3 and a really weird Templar CCW are actually only there for Stealth / Courage purposes, you're unlikely to send him into CC. Father Knight Spitfire (50 / 2) - very straightforward and resilient killer that can throw 5 dice on 17s in the face of your opponent if you get him some useless bodies to tag along with (52 points of bodies at least, but you're likely to want Sergeant Paramedics there too). Still very expensive, no Frenzy discount to be able to go solo rambo (but why would you do that if you can go with FT? beyond my comprehension). No Stealth, but instead very high BTS - will be hard to recover if the hackers get you (since we cannot send Machinist with the link). Lack of Courage also means you're potentially gonna struggle if someone starts throwing too many dice at you, too. Santiago Spitfire (43 / 1) - now we're talking. This guy has Stealth and Courage, can link with anybody (so he also can throw 5 dice on 17s in the face), has Frenzy discount, has E/M grenades and is a Specialist Operative on top of that. If his link will ever get less than 4 models, he's also 360 visor. Wow. Just... wow. Considering that this guy also costs fewer points AND SWC than FK Spitfire, I see absolutely no reason to bring the former along instead of the latter. It's just so clearly better on every important aspect! Joan of Arc Spitfire (51 / 1) - another excellent piece, and from my POV, the only real competitor of Santiago in this category. Brings 2 cheap orders thanks to Inspiring Leadership, free synchronized order, has outstanding stats like BS 15, 3 effective wounds and amazing 6-2 movement, has Frenzy discount and a quite good CC capability (shouldn't be ever needed, though) with Stealth / Courage. Unfortunately, not a specialist, cannot link with cheap Order Sergeants (either Duo with Santiago / FK or a Crusade Fireteam). 2) Support / Backline Lt - should be either the specialist or the guy that has a useful supporting ability. Now, as we have Teuton NCO, in some cases you'd really like to bring this guy along not to waste your Lt order. In this category: Hospitaller Multirifle (35 / 0) - say hello to our cheapest / least useful Lieutenant. This guy, while technically able even to kill a TAG, does not really want to go out that much. He can not push buttons, he does not bring order efficiency, he's a waste if put in the only link he can participate in (i.e Hospitaller Core / Haris) since in Core he'd be worth 4 more points than Boarding Shotgun Hospitaller and does not bring much more value, while in Haris he's occupying a spot reserved for Order Sergeant for a lot more points (while two other spots are obviously taken by Doctor/Haris and HMG). Take this guy if you actually want old style "Fusilier" Lt, to make his main purpose to lie down somewhere on the roof (and hopefully give his Lt order to that Teuton NCO guy) Father Knight Forward Observer (45 / 0) - this guy pays 10 points for being marginally more useful than the previous one. He can link with defensive OS core, to move out later and push some buttons / observe somebody's corpse in the endgame. Still as resilient as FK Spitfire, but does not have a lot of use for it. His order also wants to be spent by Teuton NCO, while you're asking yourself why didn't you take somebody more useful or, at least, less expensive. Or... why wouldn't you take the next option for a 4 points more: Joan of Arc Multirifle (49-50 / +1) - now, this is how supportive Lt should look like. Again, 2 cheap orders, free Syncronized order every turn, 3 effective wounds, almost the same level of ARM / BTS as FK, but with Courage and Stealth as well. With Frenzy discount and ability to neglect it through Duo links if really needed, she also allows you to get more big guns by increasing your SWC limit by 1. She's awesome and makes all the other Support Lt options look bad. Previously, we also had Fusilier Lt for a measly 10 / 0, which proposed a really hard choice between high risk / high reward option and a safe "multiple Fusiliers on the roof" one (that was also order-providing). As for now, it seems like in competitive (read: optimised/min-maxed) lists there would be either Santiago or Joan Lts since they are the most efficient for the points they are worth. Both of them are, unfortunately, quite obvious and have a huge bullseye on them. That means you also have to bring KotHS (and mask him as a backup sergeant for link filling-reformation, probably). KotHS, indeed, does not want to be brought with just a mere Breaker Combi rifle (which is way, way better than previously used Combi, but is still lacking in range and burst to be sufficient for a rambo piece), so you have to pay (56 / 2) to get a solid Spitfire option. Which is honestly good, while costly due to lack of Frenzy. Now that you have spent somewhere about 100 / 3 just on your Lt and his backup, you can actually start choosing stuff that you'd like to tinker with and plan for how many orders you'd like to have in it. Do you see the problem? P.S. Also, imagine you want to use Seraph / Tikbalang with this :)
