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Why so serious? Or can someone summarize the negativity

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by BarbeChenue, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    If you don't understand the difference between an action movie and genocide I pity you
     
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  2. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    That would be great. I wonder if Gutier would ever stoop so low and not use any new words though...
     
  3. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Except not because, you know, Yu Jing officer on camera being all Hitler-y. So sorry, but I don't buy the "it was all PanO/Japanese propaganda", angle because IT IS NOT WRITTEN THAT WAY, and I'm not the only one here, as Interruptor acknowledged what he said "bu-bu-but, why do people don't get my awesome portrayal of Yu Jing?": mind you, portrayal of YJ, not of PanO propaganda.
     
  4. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

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    That is a genuinely excellent post with some f**king good ideas.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @Benkei an ISS officer, not an army one, have you read the 3rd offensive?
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    While I understand it is a popular meme for some it would be really appreciated if contemporary politics are kept out of the forum.

    Also, it is not right to attack anybody, CB staff included.
     
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    And this is another perfect angle for post-Uprising YJ propaganda to work on. To play on that difference. It's not unlike one between 3rd Reich's Wehrmacht and the SS, with the former seeing the actions of the latter with disgust, and considering themselves as protectors, different from the SS butchers. Play on that. Show the compassion and benevolence of the StateEmpire Army. Show how they're working side by side with the new IS personnel, filled with righteous zeal, to bring people who abused the Emperor's trust to justice.
     
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  9. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Wait, first your argument was Uprising was all PanO propaganda, now you changed to "ISS is not Yu Jing"? Because, news flash, it is
    And again, is not a matter of ISS being evil Gestapo copycats, it's then being idiot incompetent Gestapo copycats
     
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  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    My argument is that uprising was written as a Pro JSA anti Yu Jing propaganda with slim impartial accounts on the grey subject of the matter and focuses on ISS witch is the black part of the Yu Jing Yin Yang, 3rd offensive is focused on the mass offensive CA did and the desperate defence an overconfident humanity mustered against it alongside the evolution of the story from uprising, were you see the other side of they Yu Jing perspective that of the state.

    As far as I am concerned, ISS acted like they are supposed to and there is nothing in their eyes wrong on what they did, the state may see it in a different light, the army definitely does not see it right, but maybe weakening the state further by either assassinating or forcing a new emperor and all the upheaval "cleaning house" in a low point of their path is not quite the sanest solution.

    3rd offensive shows how heroic the Yu Jing army is and how dark ISS is and how many appreciate how dark and efficient they are, Aleph and non public bureaus of O-12, like bureau psi, definitely do and use them extensively on Aliens interrogation and intelligence collection.

    ISS are not Yu Jing they are part of Yu Jing like the army is another part, same goes with hexahedron intelligence and PanO they just do not happen to have an active paramilitary army.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    At face value is something to consider. As the reader, getting a heads-up when stuff isn't portrayed properly is fairly common. This could be by way of retelling a written account such as the fluff blurb on Shang-Ji stating it's source as being the Yu Jing propaganda ministerium or, gor larger pieces, prefacing it with "This is an account of the public information and the events broadcast to billions of people across the Human Sphere by Pan-O sources". You know, making it clear it's highly biased or even outright lies.

    Missing this might not only cause upset with invested viewers, but more mundanely miss out on providing nuance to the audience.

    I hope that in the future we see more partial stories, and that they are marked as such, to provide several different perspectives
     
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  12. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    If people can't tell the fluff is written in propaganda pieces then they aren't paying enough attention. For every fluff piece at the end it shows who is saying it and to whom. That usually tells you what faction is behind the article. So that most likely is not the whole truth. The truth would probably be somewhere in the middle between that story and the other side. Given the black ops nature of the game I'd hope people would realize that.
    That's not saying bad dudes don't do bad things. The ISS and the Yuandun (or however you spell the unit that the crane agent guy was apart of) are bad dudes. They're the bad dudes who do bad things to keep the gears turning.
    @Stiopa I couldn't say that I would like how your fluff version would go. It honestly reads too much like an apology and is too attached to current day western morals. I also don't think YJ would ever call itself a weaker power when compared to pano and I doubt they'd talk to haqq and the nomads as if those two factions were its equals. The emperor shouldn't have to answer to the people and it would look weak to be apologizing to the Japanese and letting them back into the fold. Also I doubt very much there would be a ton of people wanting to gut the ISS. They certainly wouldnt go along with it and I'm sure YJ would be making them look like heroes and the Japanese like terrorists. Fear and anger are common emotions when you see buildings blowing up and people who are angry or afraid are easy to control.
     
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  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    It very well might be too based on western morals, but let's face it, the whole game and its fluff is. Your argument is basically that YJ leadership is too proud to see the reality - they are weaker than PanO - or to do the sensible thing, which would be to stop posturing and do their best to reduce internal tensions to be able to deal with external threats. Please bear in mind, that it was exactly this blind pride and posturing that brought about the Uprising and the disastrous way it was handled. Right now Japanese territories are a time bomb; keeping the lid on requires massive use of the military and security resources, and distracts the command from adressing other pressing issues. This needs to be diffused, and fast.

    Regarding Emperor - there's nothing apologetic in the proposed solution. Again, I'm putting emphasis on the difference between Emperor as a person and Emperor as a position and symbol. The Emperor is to be respected and obeyed not because he's a person worthy of respect, but because he rules with the Mandate of Heaven. This means that he's in his place in the natural order of being, and so are his subjects. Its not about personal honor and loyalty, like in case of the Japanese, but about recognizing and adhering to the natural structure of the world, which allows the whole society to function in harmony with it. It manifests itself in the way society grows and prospers. But the Emperor as a person isn't infallible, he can misstep and lose the Mandate of Heaven, and bring about disorder and destruction of the society; it's not the fault of the structure, it's the fault of a person. The natural order needs to be restored, and there's nothing to apologise for. This actually grounds the fluff in eastern social philosophy, while allowing to portray YJ as a pragmatic villain. Please take a look at the tropes used throrough the media; pride and posturing you're writing about are the hallmarks of villains holding the idiot ball, doing stupid things for the evulz, and more often than not they lead to said villain downfall. What YJ should be is the ruthless chessmaster and manipulator, using every available tool and trick to further its goals. It's the only way to even dream about surpassing PanO.

    I also don't know what in my theory reads like YJ treating Nomads and Haqq as equals. For the Empire they're useful allies, helping them offset PanO military and political advantage, but ultimately they're tools, not partners, even if situation calls for putting up a different facade. Since they've decided to side with PanO for the sake of political expediency, it'd be wise to remind them about the broader picture and longer time frame. They can't expect to bite one hand of the Empire and expect it to still pet them with the other one. Who do they think they are, cats?

    About cleaning up the IS - first of all, there would be all kinds of internal allies for the task. Are you familiar with the term "dogfight under the carpet"? Because that's what court politics really is. IS always had a lot of internal enemies, and its performance during the Uprising makes their adversaries look fully justified. Not to mention that it simply needs to be done. You don't keep incompetent agents in place, unless you wish for the history to repeat itself. Same goes for straight up vilifying the Japanese, while hailing all Empire actions. How well did it go just now? Do you remember the definition of insanity?
     
  14. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Your reading of a text is, in part, dependent on your situation and environs. I wonder if there's a difference between the Spanish and British audience, against those from elsewhere - specifically because separist politics are very much active and at the forefront of our public lives.
     
  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I got into Infinity to get away for the GW Warhammer 40k 16 year old BS. Which I felt Uprising was.
     
  16. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    While being weaker YJ doesn't sound like the kind of place that will admit that. Also you don't think there would be people ready to revolt and feeling betrayed for out and out forgiving the Japanese or punishing alot of the ISS? How many citizens who lost their friends and family in Japanese terrorist attacks would be willing to forgive so quickly? Backpedaling could just as easily backfire and cause more uprest or even a civil war. The whole mandate from heaven is nice and all but alot that is backed up by having guys who are willing to gun down civilians and make those they disagree with disappear. The citizens would be out for blood and revenge, the ISS would be seen as heroes and protectors, the party would stoke those emotions for their gain.
     
  17. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    :joy::joy::joy:sure
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    YJ will have problems either way, it's only a case of choosing which kind they want. They can either have a prolonged period of distrust and racial tension, or they can have large part of its territory under martial law, rampant terrorist campaign, ongoing PR disaster in the Human Sphere and O-12, and constant distrust and racial tension.

    The way I put it they can get rid of vast majority of people that don't want to be there in the first place, yank the carpet from under the feet of both domestic terrorists and political opponents, and then spin it in the direction that the people responsible for the Uprising got defeated, traitors - or simply untrustworthy elements - were allowed to left as an example of Emperor's and Party's restraint and mercy, and the remaining Japanese have proven their loyalty. It's not that far-fetched as political spin goes.

    It'd be even easier in regard to IS. You put the emphasis on the Army heroism and dedication, show that while IS as a whole wasn't responsible for the atrocities caused by its fringe, most fanatic units, it certainly didn't cover itself in glory, and you hammer the point home. Army is the guardian of the People. IS is to be carefully cleared, and its remaining and new Agents need to prove themselves worthy of the Emperor's trust.

    Stoking the fear and hatred would be a severe case of "heavyhanded tactics backfired spectacularly, let's double down on them". Ultimately to each his own, but I think my version makes YJ more complex and interesting, and opens up new, interesting ways for it to develop in the future.

    edit: Oh, and about being weaker - YJ wouldn't admit it publicly, but for it to act in any effective manner they need to acknowledge it privately. Realpolitik should be shaped by facts and cold-blooded analysis, not by blind pride.
     
    #338 Stiopa, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Really? Because you didn't mind when @atomicfryingpan was insulting me upthread.
     
  20. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    He pretty much quoted you and directed it back at you. If that is insulting maybe your could reflect on how you use words yourself?
     
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