I think one of the big problems is that CC with a Guijia is boring even though it has such a cool CC model, and a CC tax. I won't say it hits like a wet noodle, but the fact that it can only inflict one wound per order in a list that is going to struggle for orders by virtue of having a Guijia in the first place, an AP CCW is criminally dull. Maybe give the Guijia AP+DA or AP+Shock CCW and Natural Born Warrior? Hey I really like that idea.
I'd give it Berserk just because fuck you shoot me if you like I'll hack you in half. Probably make it cost a bit more because Berserk would be really powerful on a TAG.
Well it would be if it could do meaningful damage in one hit. At the moment it hits softer than a lot of S2s out there.
This is all very true and you are correct that units exist only in relation to their faction. However when picking a unit for a job like say Rambo it is fair to compare them to other Rambo's in your faction, then after that compare your list to other faction lists to judge who is the best fit for the missions. My comparison to Hac Tao as a Rambo. Keep in mind your value of something might not match mine so take this with handfuls of salt. Speed Marker state is going to get you where you need to go potentially with less orders and definitely safer. Late game you get more from the raw speed as ARO's that locked you down are dead but odds of the Guija also being dead are pretty good. Hidden deployment also lets you start out of cover saving some potential movement. When it comes to getting the position you want, got to give it to the Hac Tao. Survivability Hidden deployment keeps you from having to fight anything you might be scared of until you are ready. Marker state produces another hurdle that must be passed to even attack you. the ability to go prone or dodge on a 14 should not be ignored, The ability to reroll doctor rolls is helpful. Stealth helps you avoid some BTS rolls entirely and if you do have to roll you still have the same BTS score anyway. Then there is the benefit of TO cammo. Guija can take a hit from small arms like a champ but it also can be screwed over more by the map, nothing like having to go second and having to hide in some corner you don't want to be in just so you make it to your first turn... and then sometimes you won't even be given that. In the end all of the benafites for the Hac Tao are worth more then 1w and 3 armor. The killing part. This is the most important aspect and it is pretty close sadly. HFT is just a solid offensive or defensive weapon and just a flat out improvement over the Nano. CC is to close to really add anything one-way or the other imo. MHMG vs TO camo favors the CamoHMG vs light targets and are pretty close vs heavy targets. I would rather have the CamoHMG over the MHMG and that is without even considering the minor benefit of surprise shot. That -6 just means you win more shootouts. The reactive power of the explosive MHMG might not be directly part of ramboing but it still worth pointing out how well this combo's with the HFT in the reactive turn. In the end however I would call it a wash as I am pretty happy with both offensive loadouts but the Guija takes the win with a surprise pilot popping out and shooting a flamer in your face. Other factors. the Guija has a specialist pilot that kind of messes things up here. It's not adding THAT much to your primary goal of Ramboing and not dyeing but it still have a lot of value all the same. he lack of a marker state makes you more vulnerable to hacking and you might start killing your own people... that is a pretty big weakness. At the cost of 1 swc the Guija can be your LT and attack with 11 orders. At the cost of 1 point the Hac Tao can be your LT and attack with 11-12 orders. The last nail in the coffin is price. 20 point difference is another trooper backing up the Hac Tao! There are missions where the Hac Tao is not going to do as much for you as a Guija, but for those missions is Yu-jing really the best faction to use? As for a fix.. I am inclined to say the Hac Tao and the Swiss are the problem. TO camo on HI is very good after all. What I would like to see is for some tags to get the gun form of Berserk but that is off in the realm of crazy talk. Tactical sense would probably also work I guess.
The big issue with a pilot armed with a template weapon is that I don't know when I'd want to pop them out and risk a normal roll, because in that case you're effectively turning your TAG into a 0 ARM 1 Wound model.
At which point I'd rather the Hac Tao (or Daofei if we include vanilla). As a forward-facing bruiser, there are just so many better options.
@Mahtamori Any idea how much the Guijia would cost if we downgrade it to a regular HMG, stick MA3 on it and bump the CC to 21-22 and give it a DA CCW? I'm thinking of something mildly worse at shooting than the BS15 Seraph which is 79pts, but mildly tougher with +1 PH and ARM over the Seraph in exchange for Super Jump. Now stick Eclipse Grenades on it and I think we have something unique and interesting to play with. We have something that shoots ok, but is also enough of a threat in CC you can't just run at it, and now it can also do scenery based objectives effectively. Jesus ROFL no it's not. This is the last thing you do with a TAG unless you want it to be your opponent's TAG. I played at an event on the weekend, Druze player put Scarface on the table and moved him all of 8" out of his DZ. Next turn a Tiger AHD popped onto the table, steals Scarface and makes him kill 7 of his own models starting with his sister. I cannot stress hard enough that running deep up the table with a vulnerable TAG is one of the worst plays you can possibly make The Guijia is 6-4. You are correct. We have been over this many, many, many times in other threads. You cannot use that 6-4 movement effectively or in a safe manner because besides being more difficult to move up because big silhouette people can and will hack your TAG. The Guijia having this movement doesn't mean squat because it spends the first 2 turns of the game shooting out of its DZ. You might as well be a Yan Huo at that point because you cost less and your gun is better, and now you can even stick it in a link if you want. It's the same reason all those other things like being a specialist are rarely helpful, because again, you can't be in the middle of the table doing specialist things unless you run the risk of something play Grand Theft tAg with you.
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Lizard with CC tax" bullshit that's going on in the INFINITY system right now. Guijias deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that. I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Guijia in Mexico for 960 pesos (that's about 42 Euros) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid ARM with my Guijia. Bolivian casters spend years working on a single Guijia and spin it up to a million times to produce the finest models known to mankind. Guijia are thrice as dangerous as PanO TAGs and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a EXP CCW can cut through, a AP CCW can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a Guijia could easily bisect a Seraph with full STR with a simple vertical slash. Ever wonder why PanO never bothered conquering Yu Jing? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Siling Squadrons and their Guijias of destruction. Even in the Ariadnan Commercial Conflicts, Ariadnan-American grunts targeted the women with the Guijias first because their killing power was feared and respected. So what am I saying? Guijias are simply the best TAG that the human sphere has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the INFINITY system. Here is the stat block I propose for Guijias: SWC 2, Cost 92 MOV 6-4 CC 22 BS 14 PH 18 WIP 14 ARM 8 BTS -6 STR 3 Skills/Equipment ECM, Natural Born Warrior, Martial Arts Level 3, Fatality Level 2, Valor Level 3: No Wound Incapacitation, Hyperdynamics Level 1, Kinematica Level 2, NCO, Fireteam: Haris BS Weapons MULTI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower CC Weapons AP+DA CCW Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Guijia in real life, don't you think? tl;dr = Guijia need to do more damage in INFINITY, see my new stat block.
I think you're making a very good analysis and I agree with what you're saying. I imagine that our terrain metas may be slightly different, as I find we often have low walls that S2 cannot pass, and S7 can, and we have lots access to rooftops via crates etc. This gives a significant speed and defensive boost to TAGs, especially when it's only one order to pull back into your half of the board, but an S2 can't easily chase you. In terms of midfield hacking, again our metas may be different. I find we often have KHDs, and run Sensor/repeater bots, so killing midfield Camo Hackers is just a normal part of any match. I'm definitely not saying the Guija is always a superior assault piece, as it's not, but it definitely offers a unique combination of abilities that can be very useful. Most importantly is that it is not just an assault piece, it's also a specialist. We often play missions that reward midfield specialists, so that's something that the Hac Tao and Yan Huo cannot do. If you want them, you have to pay for the Specialist separately which is fine, but again no Specialist can do what the Guija can, (be fast, durable, tank Mines, long range threat, etc) just as the Guija can't do what a Guilang FO can (infiltration, Camo, Mines).
I don't sit on nearly the best knowledge of the points system, I'm basically always a bit off and usually lean towards the lower end, but I'd hazard that the Guijia would increase in points to low or mid 90's with MA3 or go down 1 or 2 points without MA3. Considering the O-Yoroi got only CC21 and MA1, the chances of this happening, however, are slim to none.
At this point it looks like the chances of the Guijia getting a buff period are slim to none, that's not to say that we shouldn't have a better CC TAG than JSA As far as I'm concerned as long as we pay the CC Tax we should be a top tier CC factionl
Although, typically CC Tax is what we call it when the CC stats are only good enough to cost points and not good enough to actually use :) What I mean is that given the slim chance that Guijia gets an upgrade, there would only be a non-existant chance that the upgrade makes it better in CC compared to the O-Yoroi. Having the CC stats be marginally worse than the O-Yoroi and having NBW would be an interesting alternate take on JSA vs Yu Jing TAG grudge combat where the O-Yoroi and the Guijia would be roughly similarly matched against each other with slightly better tanking for Guijia and slightly better offensive on the O-Yoroi. Not sure that'd be an improvement, however, but it would be cool in that specific edge case!
Yu Jing players being jealous of Pano. Its the simplest explanation. :P There use to be a cure to the boringness of the Guijia with the awesome O-Yoroi (it at least had something novel among TAGs). But then CB took that away. p.s. I sympathize, Pano has long suffered from banality.
So.... like the Guijia is right now? Personally I don't rate CC19 and no skills and an AP CCW as good enough to actually use territory. I'd take it if we give it Eclipse Grenades. Being the only source of those would at the very least give it a unique reason to be picked up and it's unlikely to get out of control in faction considering it's on a 90ish point TAG. Ok, so leading up to Third Offensive the factions getting changed have 3 TAGs amongst them that are generally considered sub par and in need of help: The Raicho The Seraph The Guijia The Seraph got its buff with Third Offensive, gaining a new much cheaper profile with a bigger gun, and receiving a buff that has been asked for by Pan-O players for a very long time in the form of giving the buddy bot super jump as well. The Raicho got its buff a little earlier before the book dropped to align with its new sculpt dropping, and debuted a brand new piece of gear out of the blue that happens to be exceptionally good at fighting link teams. It's also really good to note here that pre buff the Raicho was basically a Guijia that was immune to Isolation and Loss of LT because of the Morat rule, but otherwise was for all intents and purposes a Guijia. Then the Guijia, clearly in need of a buff as its more or less Morat shaped twin needed one, got... Get why people are irritated with the lack of attention given now? Something as small as replacing the stupid AP CCW with a DA CCW could have at least given me the chance to reason "Maybe this model is worth playing on Looting and Sabotaging" But no, nothing. No changes to a clearly bad TAG despite a monkey shaped copy getting buffs.
I wouldn't call Guijia's CC prowess "nothing". At point blank range where the Guijia is in cover and the Swiss Guard is not, it's largely more beneficial to break cover and go "sprotch!" the puny HI's face. Of course, this doesn't translate to all targets, the Swiss is bit of an edge-case Active Player 53.05% Guijia inflicts 1 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (1 W) Failures 36.43% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 10.52% Swiss Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Guijia (2 STR) vs Active Player 40.52% Guijia inflicts 1 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (1 W) 9.70% Guijia inflicts 2 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Unconscious) 1.22% Guijia inflicts 3 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Dead) Failures 50.25% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 9.23% Swiss Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Guijia (2 STR) With a DA CCW I'd go so far as to call the Guijia's melee prowess a rare "decent" for a trooper with CC below 20.
Assuming the Swiss Guard doesn't dodge I actually think it's better to light him on fire with the Heavy Flamethrower you'll burn his TO off at the very least and 1/5 he eats 2 wounds instead of 1. With that said, I'm not sure how you get the game into the position where the Guijia is getting into a fist fight with a Swiss Guard. Neither of them want to get that close to the other.
70% chance of dodging the template and only 13% chance of inflicting damage. If the Swiss decides to shoot instead hoping to do damage it's still not great chances at actually doing damage with the Guijia. Dodge is still the Swiss' best option which makes it 48% chance of sword-through-skull versus 28% chance of getting out of dodge. Regardless, the Guijia will be able to pursue and repeat assuming there's orders to do so. Case in point, the high CC skill makes hitting likely and the extreme PH makes it unlikely to save. Still, DA CCW would have been useful on so many levels.
My point remains though, its CC stats are so poor they're not actually good enough to use in a real scenario (because let's be real here you're not going to get this kind of point blank scenario with a Swiss Guard). The fact that you can stab something better than a Fusilier can doesn't mean it's good enough to use yet otherwise we'd think the Shang Ji is hot shit at CC and we both know he's not. The TAG needs MA to get past repeaters, and needs some CC skills so it doesn't get jumped by a Warband or Dog Warrior and fall over straight away.
It's about position, right? If there's something in the way that isn't actually good at CC, the Guijia can still move forward and kill it rather than moving backwards to shoot or taking bad shots in the -3 range. But do you really want to double down so much to make the model actually great in CC? If I were to try and detach myself from my own vested interest in seeing the model shine, I'd say... no. It's important that Shaolin and Morlockes are dangerous to even the Guijia. Even the O-Yoroi isn't able to properly handle Morlockes. But it's hard to decide when.
Thanks, I see where you're coming from. I guess two things surprise me, one being that your meta considers the Guija in need of help, whereas mine doesn't. I imagine that just comes down to local players, missions, terrain, and experiences. I have no idea what the ITS stats are on Guija use and effectiveness, but I imagine CB do. For us, Guija is very effective in Yu Jing, eg as its the only TAG that can have its own cheap order pool with Kuang Shi etc, as well as another whole Combat group. The second bit I don't really get is the desire to post negatively about an update without us all having time to play with the toys and see how things work. I've come to this forum with IA dropping as I'm starting Yu Jing with them and am really surprised at the general negativity after the release of such a cool faction. To be honest, I've found it quite off-putting and I can't see how it will help bring new players to Yu Jing, and make the Infinity community stronger, which I think is one of the main purposes of these forums. I could understand us having a constructive conversation after a few months when people have had at least a chance to see how things pan out, as then we'll be able to see how well CB has balanced IA and the Guija. I guess that's my two cents, I'll get off my soapbox now :)
