TAGs are cool models. Some of them are actually useful, like the Avatar, Sphinx or the Cutter. Guijia is really "meh" when compared to our HIs, but since CB want to see TAGs being played, having it in IA is an upside. ITS 10 has some missions created with TAGs in mind, like Deadly Dance. Being able to play those with a Guijia and a Core link might be nice. That said, I do agree with most of you guys: Guijia is not something I ever think about when building a list, unless the mission is specifically designed to bring a TAG.
I honestly don't understand the negativity in this thread. I know tone is often difficult to accurately communicate over text, so I'm assuming the negative comments are being honest and not being sarcastic. I genuinely enjoy Theoryfinity and discussing units and tactics so am approaching this discussion in the hope of learning how others like to play which can improve my game. My experience is based on my meta, so your experiences may be very different. The Guija is: Fast (6-4 S7) Durable (STR 3, ARM 8, BTS 6, repairable) Specialist BS 14 MULTI-HMG Template weapon (HFT) Is only a single Order when destroyed Dismountable (so you can use the Silhouette to block LoF, eg to allow your Pilot to press buttons out of LoF, which is similar to Eclipse grenades that you don't even have to roll for) No other unit in IA or Yu Jing combines these elements. No other unit can do what the Guija can do. Obviously it has downsides, like every unit in Infinity. Units exist only in relation to their faction, so direct comparison is misleading. If you don't like what the Guija offers, thats fine. Some people like TR REMs, some people don't. Saying the Guija has nothing to offer or will never be taken is pure hyperbole which I don't find constructive (assuming it isn't meant to be sarcastic). Yan Haos are slow and not specialists. Rui Shis and TR REMs aren't durable, specialists or have template weapons. HI links aren't fast, are not repairable, and risk losing multiple Orders when destroyed. I can't see anything that offers what the Guija offers, and so it always has a place if you want it's unique combination of traits.
I think the harshest criticism you can level at the Guijia is that it's boring. It has nothing going for it that allows you to engage asymmetrically, it just straight up moves forward and shoots. Like I wrote in the OP, there is room for this type of unit, even if the entire sectorial is designed around that role pattern, but it also has to work within the sectorial and vanilla, but increasingly it doesn't keep enough ahead of the curve to merit the 30 points in extra cost. Looking at Pan-O's TAGs we see that the most adored TAGs have something that makes them perform differently from others. This might be marker state, climb+, or Super-Jump (though I think the jury is still out on the Seraph). Guijia hasn't got any of that, so even if it's got a slightly stronger* statline compared to most Pan-O TAGs, it's still much more exposed to whatever premium HI Yu Jing gets next while the Pan-O TAGs typically don't need to worry about a HI usurping their schtick. It also helps that a lot of the TAGs in question has abilities that allows you to seriously up the statline over what it actually is. So referring back to the OP, this is why I suggest that instead of changing what the Guijia does, because it does what it does decently, changing it to be able to do what it does more is appropriate. With an extra order or three, we're increasing value of the performance instead of affecting the performance itself the way Pan-O TAGs do. Triumph's critique is perfect. Calling the proposed changes "bland" is probably the best sort of criticism. That means it'll probably be a matter of preference rather than optimisation that keeps it out of lists. * Debatable, but let's not debate that, okay?
@Mahtamori: As a PanO player I can certainly relate to the "this unit is decent, but boring" argument. Guijia is perfectly good standard TAG, but, just as you're saying, it brings nothing unique to the army. It's simply another beatstick in faction that has no shortage of them, especially after 3rdO. That being said, I'm not sure if your changes would actually work here. What they do, is basically giving Guijia another two orders to do its thing. This raises two important questions: would that be enough a reason for YJ players to field it, and wouldn't that lead to a really pronounced rambo problem? Because it might, and in that case it might be better to shift Guijias capability sideways, to find new ways it could work with rest of its list. From what I know unit cooperation was always YJ thing, while PanO relied on highly specialized, focused troopers (though with us getting more toolboxes YJ might as well get a highly efficient rambo).
Yes. You are correct. If I were to be a community manager and be faced with criticism of that sort from players I'd simply say "by design". However, what you're looking for would mean more significant redesign of the unit as a whole, instead of more fuel for the steam engine the train would need to shift to electric or move away from running on tracks entirely so to speak. That's not a level of redesign that's easy to do without doing it from authority and I hope that Gutier takes the time to do that. What I'm presenting is more of a light-touch approach with the caveat that from my experience with IA so far, IA tends to either stop dead in its tracks as if their transports are being bombarded from outer space or they just steamroll their opposition once you've faced down that one or two pieces that's causing you problems. NCO + TA Guijia would be a gigantic locomotive that will either drive your list or derail all of it.
The Guija is good but boring, I will accept that. Be cool if it had something to fluff it up a bit. Although, I do think it's a pretty strong option. I played with double Geckos today and I absolutely wish I could take a proper ARM 8 TAG in CJC.
That is true, but Corregidor isn't as top-heavy as YJ/IA. Geckos sit somewhere between MB and Iguana, and IA has a lot of heavies to fit there. It's similar to PanO players asking what Squalo and Uhlan bring to the table over Swiss (I think they're underestimating Feuerbach/HMG combination on fast, durable, and camoe'd platform, but still, the question is valid).
I like good but boring... A simple main battletag with no frills and no fuss is perfect for the Guija imo. my issue is that I am not convinced of the "good" part of the good but boring argument. Whelp at least it's not like Ariadna and we actually get a tag for tag missions lol.
The thing that the Guija brings you is speed, which IA otherwise lacks due to being very much based on 4-4 firepower in your DZ. Which is not to say it's slow, but that MOV 6-4 firepower and resilience is what you get. You can then back that up with a conservative Zhanshi link. Can you run it in Vanilla better? Instinct is yes, although I dunno maybe IA has some flexibility that we've not seen yet. I mean the Sectoral has been out for less than a week, it's not like the tactical depths are yet explored here.
Even so, the amount of tactical depth people have found is kind of staggering- I'd say they're semi-equally capable. Vanilla since it has the ever so holy Holy Kuang Shis of Antioch and access to Infiltrating/Forward Deploying KHDs alongside easier ease of deploying Repeaters for Exorcisms in the form of Guilang FOs. IA since it can form a defensive budget Zhanshi link and add some other small support gubbinz to help out. Whether they can run the Guijia equally badly, good or well is a whole different debate altogether.
I'd say this, like, the Guija is a Lizard that costs a whole extra 1pt more, and the Lizard is basically fine and the only reason I don't take it is because I don't want to buy the mini. Now Nomads run TAGs pretty well, but better than YJ? About on a par, if say, and with IA too. The Guija is fine. It's job is to MOVE-SHOOT and it does that well. Also it is beautiful.
Honestly, I'd dare argue Vanilla Nomands could probably run the Lizard a bit better than we can the Guijia, simply due to there being an argument for them simply being better equipped to support a Lizard ( Without mentioning the HGL it can take. ), with a significantly wider roster of Engineers to pair with it, the usual thing about Nomads being able to do the hacking game really well which does help with TAGs and them having a wider scope of ARO options to watch the Lizards back. But that is the Nomads being Nomads. Sadly it seems ''well'' doesn't exactly make the cut in a faction where there are... at least a good handful of other units that can MOVE-SHOOT at the very least on par, if not better ( Situationally or otherwise than the Guijia. ). Though I will admit this is more or less enough reason for me to use a Guijia.
Engineers are risky business with non G: Sync TAGs but yes I get your point. The ability to run a TAG is often very much based on your ability to support and screen it which Nomads do well and Vanilla YJ also does well although I'll admit IA doesn't really do area control outside of "I ARO with my linked HI." The hacking you need with a TAG is an EVO to run Reboot maybe and probably some killer devices.
I really like this. Smoke is iffy since it looks like a conscious decision to keep any sort of smoke outside of IA, but the idea of the Guijia's thing being close combat potential makes sense to me on a number of levels: our sorta CC-faction identity (does anybody really consider this a thing anymore? We have like, 4 units with Martial Arts), the sweet swords on the model, and the fact that as the "human skill/training" faction, it would make sense for the Guijia's schtick to be something related to the pilot rather than the technology. Heck, is adding smoke with a SWC cost a viable idea? 3 SWC (or even 2.5) is a LOT of SWC to pay, but smoke in IA would be invaluable, and giving it that big of a cost might be an interesting list-building decision for players.
That's the thing, putting smoke behind a ~90 point paywall would attach it to a very distinctive playstyle within the sectorials (and without it). Losing the Multi on the HMG wouldn't be much of a loss, the Guijia is always going to be suboptimal in that regard anyway. The gun would still fulfill a purpose in allowing you to roll lots of dice to keep yourself safe on your way up the table. And I can't stress enough how much it would go well with the Hulang. It'd give it a valuable entry into combat that IA really does nothing to provide for it at the moment, while the Hulang's monofilament CCW and E/M grenades would help to tie up beefier threats that would slow the Guijia down. Above all, it just sounds fun. It'd be enough for me to seriously consider IA as an army, rather than just using it as an expansion for my vanilla.
Smoke is overrated when you're a fantastic active turn killing force though. You could deploy smoke, or you could just fucking annihilate whatever you're trying to hide from with your active turn MHMG.
Does it? It moves half as fast and is much less of a hard target. You have to push up and turn flanks if you want to get LOF in my experience, the Yan Huo sucks at that. Yes if they stand visible from your DZ it's a cheaper shooter but in all likelihood you're going to have to come out to play, and the Guija is cracking for that.
