This seems to clear it up. I'm sure we had this conversation for Speculative Fire when the FAQ came out and came to the same conclusion. Outcome: MMLX has the BS Attack label (it just appears in the text, not the labels section)?
I do not see anything wrong or odd with the new MMLX rule, any weapon with an unmodified B of 2+ can be used regardless of its modified B, cover is finally ignored, for link teams B bonuses are not applied, but BS bonuses apply as normal. edit You cannot coordinate MMLX with other non MMLX short skills because the order declaration must be the same for everybody, this never changes, if spearhead is the MMLX model it declares MMLX a long skill and all other models not having MMLX perform idle, if the spearhead is another model and declares BS attack then the MMLX model must declare BS attack and not MMLX, not 4 models with MMLX can all declare coordinated order and all attack with MMLX without any issues. Since MMLX is an optional skill applied to BS attacks you can mix it with other BS attacks like normal, in the same way one can use forward observer as their BS attack, given the requirements are that the weapon must have B2+ as a stat not as modified stat, the fact its B is either halved or turned to 1 is not relevant. I really hoped you liked the new rework of MMLX as it makes it more usable and less restricted.
Hang on: you're saying that you can't co-ord Spec Fire or Intuitive Attack and BS Attack? Edit: I'm misremembering how that conversation came out. http://www.infinitytheforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/51354-Co-ordinated-BS-Attacks-
The spearhead dictates what skills and in what sequence they will be declared straight from the rules. Edit, Right I forgot we scrapped the entire order thing, you can mix and match with other BS attacks because it is not an entire order skill anymore, just an optional modifier to BS attack.
Which doesn't really answer the core question: Can you co-ord BS Attacks which don't have the BS Attack label with each other or other BS Attacks that do have the BS Attack label? Or (to put it a different way) is it sufficient for the 'BS Attack' keyword to appear in the text of the rule rather than the 'label' section? @Hellois @ijw ?
Can I have the question clearer please? MMLX is a skill applied to a BS attack, forward observer is a BS attack, speculative fire is an entire order, hence not a BS attack.
MMLX is an Entire Order (as of 3O). It's the equivalent to Speculative Fire. Both are also BS Attacks but don't have the 'BS Attack' label in the 'label/traits' line of the Skill but do have the 'BS Attack' keyword in their text. Can you co-ord BS Attack and MMLX? Can you co-ord MMLX and Speculative Fire? I think the answer is yes, because both the MMLX and Speculative Fire skills let you perform a BS Attack ("The user may make a single BS Attack" and "in this single BS Attack"). But I'm really not sure and at the moment would play it as 'No' because that's the strictest reading of the rules. I'm asking because of this FAQ that explicitly allows you to Co-ord two skills with different names if they are both BS Attacks. "Q: Are Skills with the BS Attack label considered to be BS Attacks or other Skills when declaring a Coordinated Order? For example, could a Coordinated Order be made where one of the members declares Surprise Shot, another Forward Observer and a third troop shoot with a rifle? A: They are considered to be BS Attacks, so can be combined in a Coordinated Order."
AH right so yes I was remembering correct it is an entire order skill, sorry for that. so what I wrote in the start stands MMLX is an entire order skill, it cannot be combined with other short skills because either the spearhead is not the model with MMLX and has not declared MMLX as its order or the MMLX is the spearhead and the other members do not have MMLX as a skill and declare idle, in the case of all models having MMLX as their skill (grunts, maybe others) then all can coordinate MMLX as a coordinated order. Surprise shot and forward observer are short skills that are BS attacks and can be combined because they are all short skills or attached to skills that are considered BS attacks. Does this clears it up?
hmm, so speculative fire doesn't get the +3 link team bonus in this case? I always thought it was a BS attack because of the line in the description.
No it doesn't. Because you can absolutely co-ordinate Entire Order Skills with Short Skills (Triangulated Fire and BS Attack is one, Cybermask and White Noise is another).
It is a BS Attack, it just doesn't have the BS Attack label. The second isn't necessary for the first. Edit: or more correctly it allows you to perform a BS Attack
Because @ijw said so.* http://www.infinitytheforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/43355-Coordinated-Hacking,-how-does-it-work? * See, that's how you do an argument from authority [emoji14]
In the particular example linked @ijw says it is an intentional exemption EVO repeaters have, so it would be a particular exception for EVO repeater allowing coordinated hacking (already an exception). So it would be completely irrelevant to this particular discussion.
He says "such wording was intentionally left out of EVO hacking devices". It also was never raised as an issue when this was discussed in the context of BS Attacks. But I was referring to his explanation of how it functions: that interpretation is extensible to BS Attacks. Such wording is also left out of Co-ordinated Orders. Instead Co-ordinated Orders require the exact same sequence of skills. The FAQ makes it clear that skills with the BS Attack label "are considered to be BS Attacks, so can be combined in a Coordinated Order." Triangulated Fire is an Entire Order skill with the BS Attack label that can (thanks to the FAQ) be combined with short skill BS Attacks in a Coordinated Order. It is unambiguous that this is possible (what IJW clarified in that Hacking thread is how they'd be resolved). Ergo you can combine Entire Order Skills with Short Skills in a Coordinated Order. This isn't even up for debate. The question is not that. The question is whether skills that allow you to perform a BS Attack but lack the BS Attack label are considered to be 'BS Attacks' themselves. There's good reasons to think not (the FAQ question only deals with skills that possess the label), but it's not clear. Rereading the previous thread (on Spec Fire) I'm actually finding it hard to work out what the conclusion was (I think it was no), but I can't remember (and I was a participant in that thread).
Just to vent on the issue as well... 1. The Order Expenditure Sequence was wrong when it was published Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.(Short Movement Skills aren't Short Skills, so following these instructions to the letter we can't actually declare most valid orders.) 2. There's no official guidance on how to resolve a coordinated order where one model wants to perform an Entire Order skill and another model wants to perform a Short Skill+Short Movement Skill, Short Skill, or Short Movement Skill. If Model A is doing an Entire Order Assault (which has Move and CC Attack tags), does that match with Model B doing a Move+CC Attack? 3. If you can do that with Coordinated Orders, presumably you can do that in every other situation where you have multiple models "performing the same order". Triangulated Fire has the BS Attack tag as an Entire Order skill. So if you've got a player with one of the new Sensor Oznats and they want to say The Oznat's going to sit here and do Triangulated Fire The Sync Preta is going to do BS Attack and then Move as the same order, and the next obvious question is "So why can't the Preta do Move+BS Attack if it can do BS Attack + Move?" Both the Coordinated Order rules and the G:Sync rules say that the models are declaring and performing the same order. 4. For bonus points, the rules say this: In other words, the expenditure of an Order allows the activated trooper to declare one of the following combinations of Skills: Any one Entire Order Skill. Any one Short Movement Skill plus any one Short Movement Skill. Any one Short Movement Skill plus any one Short Skill (and vice versa). What exactly is the Entire Order performing model declaring when the other model is declaring Short Skill+Short Movement Skill? Because Cautious Movement is an Entire Order skill with Movement tag on it. So if I declare a Coordinated Order (or other "same order" situation) with Model A declaring Cautious Movement for its Move skill, and Model B declaring Move, what happens to Model A when Model B wants to declare BS Attack? And, really, being able to mix and match Movement skills (Jump, Assault, Cautious Movement, Move, etc.) because they have the Movement tag seems like it's an even bigger deal that being able to mix BS Attacks.
IJW has clarified that in the Coord Hacking thread I linked: Moreover we know from the way that Jump + Jump (short skill) used to work with the Seraph + Auxbot 1, that an Oznat + Preta BS Attack (Entire Order) + BS Attack would prevent the second short skill. So while it isn’t ‘official’ it’s better than a lot of the outstanding issues.
This is the bit I didn't know about that would indicate the new MMLX is not a BS Attack after all. Its labels are the same as Speculative Fire and Intuitive Attack. Whereas Triangulated Fire does have a BS Attack label, and would be usable in a coordinated order with other troops performing regular short skill BS attacks. Based on what IJW said in the other thread, the troops declaring BS Attack would have to do so in the first part of the order, and they would forgo performing any skill for the second part.
Yes. It doesn't apply WHEN USING AN EVO HACKING DEVICE TO DO COORDINATED HACKING. It's an EXCEPTION because it lets you declare different Skills with different Coordinating troopers. If you're not doing Coordinated Hacking via an EVO Hacker, the troopers declare the same Skills. When using Forward Observer and a standard BS Attack, this is not being over-ridden, because the FAQ lets you use Forward Observer by declaring BS Attack. Declaring same Skill. The Entire Order Skills for shooting don't have the BS Attack label, so can't be used by declaring BS Attack. If you want to use MMLX in a Coordinated Order, you're going to need multiple troopers with MMLX. The same applies to multiple Speculative Fire or multiple Intuitive Attack uses.
Triangulated Fire does. So it's not about being an Entire Order skill, it's about being different Skills due lacking the BS Attack label. Which incidentally has been what I'm saying was the probable answer. @psychoticstorm has been arguing that you can't Co-ord Entire Order skills with Short Skills even when they're both BS Attacks. Your last paragraph answers the question though. Thankyou.
