Can you be less aggressive with each other? also please refrain from using RED as a colour. I can see the arguments been made and while it is intriguing as a tactical option to use blasts to force smoke users not use their smoke, instinctively I would side with smoke dodge can be used (assuming DD has LOF to the target and smoke blocks LOF to the attacker) purely from a mechanical perspective.
Ok : Requirement for the main target is standard BS attack requirement : "The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF." http://infinitythewiki.com/en/BS_Attack => There is a need of LoF between the K9 and the shooter (like I said in each post before) Requirement for the secondary target come from impact template http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment: Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment. Troopers affected by a Template Weapon or Equipment can declare Dodge as their second Short Skill or ARO, even if they do not have LoF to the attacker. So there is no need for a LoF between the DD and the shooter for the DD to be hit (only total cover between him and the template can protect him) As no LoF between the shooter and the DD is necessary for the shooter, you don't fulfill the requirement for smoke dodge : Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed. There is no LoF required between DD and shooter for the DD to be hit. Your argument is : the required LoF is the LoF between shooter and K9 so it's the one that fulfill the smoke dodge requirement. Please show me the RAW that support that. All the rule you quote are about "standard" BS attack that don't have this "need to have a LoF to block" requirement to create an opposed roll so I don't think they are relevant
And how then does a BS attack back at the firer force a Face to face roll despite being the secondary target? Because Responding to a Template Weapon Roll Against an Attack with a Template Weapon that required a Roll to hit—whether it was an Impact Template Weapon or an Intuitive Attack—, each affected enemy may make a separate Face to Face Roll against the attacker.
BS attack requirement : The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF Smoke dodge requirement : Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed. Different requirements. BS attack in response to an impact template fulfill the requirement, smoke dodge don't fulfill the one I underline (because no LoF is required between the DD and the shooter) Once again : your argument is "LoF between K9 and shooter is the one LoF which fulfull this requirement so DD need to block this LoF". Please show me the RAW that support that.
Actually I haven't quoted any of the normal BS Attack rules. I think everything you're arguing is covered by the Special Dodge rule if you read it closely . What makes the answer unclear is that the second subject of the sentence (enemy Attacks) is left implicit rather than spelled out for most of the sentence. Spelling it out to aid comprehension, the rule reads as follows: Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those [enemy Attacks] Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and [the enemy Attack's] LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed. The 'enemy Attack' performed is a BS Attack that requires LOF and a Roll. The LOF of the 'enemy attack' is between the attacker and the main target. By placing a Smoke template between the attacker and the K-9 the DD will block this LOF and therefore can avoid the attack (by winning a FTF).
You'd be absolutely right, if impact template won't be able to attack targets outside of LOF. But it can, which means it do not require LOF to secondary targets, which means smoke dodge cannot help you.
LoF is defined as the LoF between someone and his target You have all been arguing that the DD is a target then the LoF in the interaction between DD and Shooter is the LoF between DD and shooter. No LoF is need between DD and the shooter => end of the argument If you have no RAW to prove otherwise. What you write here is an interpretation, not the RAW. While CB may ending validating it, right now it's not supported by anything. PS : I feel it's closer interpretation to the RAI than the way I see it played right now and I would like to see it validated. Still right now there is not enough RAW to support the fact that the relevant LoF in the interaction between trooper A and B is the LoF between trooper A and C. To my best knowledge, there is no situation in the whole rules where this is the correct LoF.
No. LOF of an attack is defined as between the attacker and the main target. We know this because of the rules of BS Attack (this is the LOF required by the BS Attack) and the fact that MODs are only applied from the main target (BS Attacks LOF and MODs are closely related, which we know because Jammers ignore both). You're absolutely correct that LOF between the attacker and troopers that aren't the main target is not required. LOF between the attacker and DD is irrelevant to this.* Special Dodge only discusses one set of LOF: the LOF of the enemy Attack. * LOF between the DD and attacker is required for a legal BS Attack, but otherwise is unimportant.
You're thinking about it wrong. Instead think of it this way: The relevant LOF in the interaction is between the attacker and the main target (because this is the LOF of the enemy attack). This is true regardless of whether B or C are the main target and regardless of whether B or C are attempting a Special Dodge.
impact templates have an Area of Effect. As inane Imp pointed out, They still require LOF to the main target. No where does smoke stipulate LOF to the secondary target or even the thrower is required. Solely that LOF is required to declare and execute the attack. Which being a BS attack it is. So I am absolutely right
From a RAI/what I want point of view, I agree (as said above) From a RAW point of view, you have nothing to support it. LoF is always between the reactive and the active trooper. All situation in the game are like that. Only CB can create an exception to that. If you disagree, show me one situation in the rules where LoF is not between active and reactive trooper. As above : LoF is only between active (shooter) and reactive (DD) trooper, in the whole rulebook. Show me a situation from the rulebook were it's not the case if you claim to have RAW to support you
The enemy attack still requires LOF to the main target, which means that it is an attack that requires LOF. It is not an attack that requires LOF to the affected Trooper (which is not what the rules require). The template requires LOF to the affected Troopers, but this is true of both the main target and other troopers. The Special Dodge rule requires that the LOF of the enemy Attack is blocked. This is the LOF between the attacker and the main target (see my conversation with Arkhos). The fact that the attacker doesn't need LOF to secondary target is irrelevant.
We're not concerned with the Trooper's LOF generally but rather specifically with the Attack's LOF. The Attack's LOF is specifically between a Trooper and the main target. And CB did create an exception to it: the fact that the DD cannot protect the K-9 is the exception. The DD successfully throwing Smoke to block LOF between the attacker and the K-9 blocks the 'normal' 'direct' LOF you're discussing so should protect the K-9. It doesn't because the overriding principle is that FTFs caused via an Impact Template are resolved separately.
You just did that yourself. In your quote it does not state that the LOF must be between dodger and attacker. Why do you think it does? It just states that the attack must require 'a' LOF, in contrast to attacks like Guided Missiles or Speculative Fire which don't require LOF. But it's the same here, only that the LOF that the DD has to block is the one between the K9 and the shooter. But it doesn't say that this LOF must be between the Attacker and the one dodging, just that the attack needs to require a LOF - (again) in contrast to things like Guided Missiles or Speculative Fire. Against those you can not use the Smoke Special Dodge. Not with template weapons. Here the shooter needs LOF to the reference target, but all others that are under the template as well are affected as well, and thus 'reactive troopers'.
The concept of Attack LoF doesn't exist in the rules, there is only LoF between the 2 trooper (active and reactive) that are interacting. If you want to use the concept of Attack LoF, please show me proof of its existence. It's not an exception, its the standard application of the RAW : LoF relevant in the interaction between DD and shooter is the LoF between DD and shooter so it's the only one he can interact with using smoke dodge. It would be the same, no matter which weapon I use to shoot the K9. As above : LoF is between a trooper and his target, that's how the rule defines LoF : Line of Fire (LoF) is the criterion by which players determine whether a troop can see its target LoF can be drawn from any point in the troop's volume to any point in the target's volume. RAW supporting that ? None. You draw an interesting argument saying that RAI says that but only our CB overlords can approve it. Until they do that, its theory, not rules. PS : if it was rules, the DD would be able to smoke dodge, even if the DD had no LoF on the shooter which is in complete opposition of the rules The one smoke-dodging (the DD) is the target (you all argued that), LoF is between shooter and target. My argument. LoF is not necessary between shooter and secondary target so there are no LoF to block for smoke dodging
The DD cannot block the shot between the shooter and the K-9. Period. So, the interaction in ARO is as follows: Attacker: I have LOF to the K-9 and will use my ML and shoot. K-9 and DD: Both have LOF on the attacker. The template will hit both of them. The DD will throw smoke here (4" away that will block lof to the attacker and DD but not the K-9) K-9 idles Now, the attacker rolls: 6, a hit. the DD rolls a 12, so he wins the ftf roll. the K-9 makes all 3 armor saves (somehow). Next order. I shoot the K-9 again since I still have lof. DD and k-9 are going to dodge, the DD at -3 because he no longer has lof to the attacker. The K-9 still rolls as normal. In that interaction, does it make sense?
