I think I'm starting to fall in love with her. It all started a couple of months ago, were I participated in a tournament with Vanilla YJ. 2/5 missions had a Saturation Zone, so I figured I might as well use Lunah, rather than the Raiden HRL I always used. Holy crap, it turned out that she was amazing. Having Markmanship Level X through Saturation Zone was a rather niche use for her, but I later learned to use her outside of those missions and found out that, especially in ISS, she was the long range support that ISS have been in need of for a long time! See, I'm not sold on neither the Celestial Guard MSR, the Bao MSR, nor the Pheasant. They are either expensive, have a restrictive link tax or are simply underwhelming for what you invest into them. However, having Lunah in reserve against what ever ARO pieces your opponent has laid out for your main attack links (such as Crane link or the Su-Jian duo), is simply incredible. The Surprise Attack and Mimetism will put most FtF in your favor, which helps against the fact that you're only rolling two dices. I also mostly find her to be an excellent ARO piece, because unlike all the other snipers in ISS (well, technically the Ninja can also do this), she can actually choose what she can ARO against, due to her Marker State, which is, IMO, the biggest flaw of all the other mentioned snipers in ISS, because they lack the ability to not engage in bad firefights. Obviously this has its limits, because of the Limited Camouflage but ISS have almost nothing like her and I've started to include her in almost all of my lists, especially in ISS. How about you guys, have you had any luck with her so far and what are your experiences with her?
There was previously a large and unsatisfying debate about whether a burst two weapon can use Marksmanship lolvel X through saturation zones. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/33500-marksmanship-x-versus-saturation-zone/
Oh, right. I remember that thread. I remember it because I asked TO on his stance on the matter before I submitted my lists to the tournament, so I didn't go against the rules. I don't know why you describe it as unsatisfying though? IJW Wartrader agreed that you could, furthermore this quote here was never refuted: 'That is the crux of the problem however, you use MMX when you declare a BS attack; only after BS Attack declaration do you get to assign burst to targets in LOF and only after assigning burst do you modify that burst as a result of a saturation zone. So you go: Short Skill - BS Attack using MMX Check weapon is at least B2 Drop burst down to 1 Assign burst to target Saturation zone reduces burst by 1, to a minimum of 1 Anything else involves either time travel or contradicting existing examples. Clarification of CB's intent for the rule would be welcome.' - @Cartographer This is also backed up, and is consistent, with the wikis example #2 on how saturation zone works.
@ijw reversed himself during the thread: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...versus-saturation-zone/?page=4#comment-929852 It is unsatisfying because I wanted Marksmanship lolvel X to be useful for SOMETHING. Especially since Imperial Service has numbus grenades everywhere. It could have made Lunah really interesting and synergistic with IS.
We have locally agreed to play this by the Spanish rules instead of the ambiguous English. Still haven't had the opportunity to play her as I didn't feel she adequately complemented my list in the tournament this weekend. I really want to test her in a list with a Hsien link (for the Zhanying's Nimbus grenades so I can get a Saturation zone wherever relevant) I'm less certain about synnergising her with Wu Ming simply because of SWC constraints.
Oh, I see. However, the argument I cited from Cartographer still haven't been rebuted and I don't see a convincing argument from the other side either. Now I'm curious, how's the Spanish wording different?
EDITED. Spoiler: Spanish text PUNTERÍA NIVEL X HABILIDAD AUTOMÁTICA Opcional REQUISITOS Esta Habilidad Especial sólo se aplica al declarar un Ataque CD. Es obligatorio emplear un Arma CD con un valor de R (ya sea en perfil o Modificado) de 2 o más. EFECTOS Esta Habilidad Especial permite reducir el valor de R del Arma CD a 1, aplicando a este único disparo un MOD de +6 al Atributo de CD. Este MOD es acumulativo con cualquier otro MOD aplicable a esa Tirada de CD. Esta Habilidad Especial es de uso exclusivo en Turno Activo. Puntería Nivel X no incluye ningún otro nivel de la Habilidad Especial Puntería. Spoiler: English translation by xagroth Marksmanship LvX Automatic Skill Optional Requirements: Can only be used when declaring BS attack It is required (must have, it needs... strong word to mean that absolutely needs) a BS weapon with a Burst value (be it on the profile or Modified) of 2 or more. Effects: This special skill allows to reduce the Burst value of the BS weapon to 1 (it gets fixed at 1, no excuses), applying to that only shot a +6 MOD to the BS skill. This MOD is added (meaning it stacks) with any other MOD applied (can be applied) to this BS roll. This Special Skill can only be used (is of exclusive use during) in the Active turn. Marksmanship LvX does not include any other level of the Special Skill Marksmanship.
That ambiguity isn't fully clarified (because this game does not have a concept of "multiplication before addition before fixed values" like Warhammer 40k has/had), but it is a very reasonable thing to take for granted. The parentheses in Effects are added as interpretations by xagroth.
Sigh... Just wanted to share and discuss stories about Lunah, not kicking to a hornets nest about MMX... :(
Sorry to derail, but my interest in using her hinges on this being resolved. IS is crawling with linked nimbus grenades that don't get used. Being able to delete defensive links from afar through a Zhanying Haris' nimbus would be so awesome.
Nah man, no hard feelings here. Out of curiosity though, have you tried handling defensive links with the Wu-Ming? Tried it 3 times now, were you pick a Zhanying with nimbus + a full link of Wu-Ming, pop a nimbus and suddenly, those Fusilier links that pay to have BS15 B2 ARO, are suddenly just regular, unlinked, Fusiliers with an SWC weapon, while you're still a Wu-Ming HI with B4 HMG and BS13. It's like saying "No, F your link bonus and here's my fully operational HI trooper!" Works even better against Tohaa links, as they don't even get the +3BS bonus.
That's pretty clever, I've never thought to actually raise my odds with the Wu Ming link. Admittedly it's been able to brute force its way through all ranged threats I've faced with the BS 16 HMG / HRL but I'd definitely want the nimbus for a Fusilier/Alg/Sukeul/Ghulam/Riot missile link.
The only reason to use the Zhanying for Nimbus in a Wu Ming link, in my opinion, would be if you brought one along for the MadTraps. The more popular Hacker doesn't have Nimbus (and neither does the FO, but I don't see much reason to bring the FO in a Wu Ming link). If that's not the case, I've found that a Multi Rifle in a link to be a very convincing weapon up to about 36", so bringing along the 35-pointer Wu Ming MR+NLGL would be a good strategy to get access to Nimbus regardless of Zhanying. So, yeah, that's me pointing out that there's a Nimbus Light Grenade Launcher on a HI-platform in 5 times as many words :p
But you'll be bringing the regular Wu Ming Multi-rifle LGL for 39 points and the Zhanying ML brings nimbus grenades. That's probably the configuration where I'd find this useful. If I am plugging a Zhanying into the link I tend to run Wu Ming HMG, MR-LGL, FO, SMG & CR and Zhanying ML.
I like her quite a bit, but I do have trouble justifying her outside of ISS against the Raiden. There's no doubt she has some significant advantages over the Raiden -- the most important of which is probably mimetism. But the Raiden's mine is so good that ends up sealing the deal for me and I never take her. In ISS she's the only camouflaged sniper, so she definitely has a place there, and yeah she can do some work in the active turn if your opponent decides not to bother trying to discover her in his active turn. She's also not that well known in ISS so sometimes you'll get an opponent who is genuinely puzzled by what that camo token in your deployment zone might be. I've actually grown to prefer her to the Celestial Guard sniper, even in a five man link. I prefer to keep my celestial guards' heads down and the link full until an opportunity arises to exploit the spitfire. If a celestial guard is sticking her head out, even at BS 14 burst 2 SS2 it really only takes one order to kill her for an experienced opponent. But Lunah takes at least two orders to kill, and maybe more than that if you get lucky and they fail a discover check.
You will, I won't. In general I don't like missile launchers for active turn and in particular I don't like the Zhanying missile launcher. For ARO I'd rather have a Wu Ming HRL and for Zhanying (the few times I let a weakling into the Wu Ming link) I want a toolbox that Wu Ming can't fill. Been toying a bit with the thought of an all-combi Wu Ming link (or near enough) simply for the ap mine laying.
