Invincible Army post mortem

Staaaaaaaaa--bing Ha!

 

On this, I would assume native BS plays a part. Like how Bs13 HRLs are, as a general rule, a 2SWC weapon instead of 1.5 SWC (Suryats, Brigada, Wildcats, etc.) - but then there are exceptions like the Kamau.

 

Yeah, pretty sure BS is the first value used to adjust/correct a weapon's cost. After that, I think Wound/STR-count becomes a factor (at least, that's my guess). A BS 13 HMG with 3 STR is a lot scarier than a single wound BS 13 HMG.

 

And Regular vs Irregular has to play a part somewhere - CB justified 0.5 swc LRLs on Fishmen somehow...

 

Brigada only have a Missile Launcher which is two SWC on two wound troops. Generally heavy weapons like HMG, HRL, Spitfires, ML will cost 2 SWC on things that have that second wound.

There definitely feels more obvious hand adjustment for SWC. There is the LT discount and adjustment down for the Zuyong HMG. Then there are bumps like Spitfire Achilles, Spitfire Prowler, Sin Eater HMG, Cutter...

I guess the Ass Pistol is what drives the Wildcat up, but the Noctifer packs that with the ML on a TO dogged platform.

Overall 2 SWC covers a large swath and you have to be really special to push beyond it.

Generally wounds feel like a more reliable indicator. Domaru still pay 2 SWC for their guns.

NWI and Symbio don't seem to add by themselves unless something else kicks in (Phoenix and Liu Xing)

0.5 SWC is the normal for LRL on single wound troops. See Mavericks and Thracymedes. Rosie even gets it for free.

 

The old Montesa had an LRL for 0.5 swc as well.

 

Those are mostly character discounts - a regular Thorakitai pays 1swc for the privelige. And I wasn't actually aware the Mavericks had an option... But I pay almost no attention to anything Ariadna.

 

Soggie/Azrail has been covered, but yes, the MB ML price is strange. I can only assume that there is a rounding issue hiding someplace.

And SWC has always been hand-adjusted for faction balance.

 

While we have some time left to blindly speculate, i'd like to talk about fireteams.

Am i the only one who feels like Full HI core fireteam will be way too expensive to field because it'll leave us unable to afford some much needed support? Zuyongs are neat but they're probably one of the least impressive HI in the human sphere, and i highly doubt we can rely exclusively on a full core of them to get the job done. They'll need some help, and assuming both daoying/haidao are priced like the zhencha/liu xing and sit in the 30-to-40pts range we might not be able to afford enough of them, much less a plan B. I mean, they're no hospitalliers or riot grrls, and even those benefit from some super cost-effective support with TOFOS and zeros.

On the other hand, we have access to the yan-huos who are effectively one-man haris when it comes to firepower, which means we might not need to rely on those sweet fireteam bonuses for active and/or reactive dominance.

ATM, with what we know, i'd avoid building a "deathstar" and rather spread those HIs across the board in multiple duos or haris. If i want to go for a full core, it'll probably be a pseudo zuyong haris filled with a Pangulling and Son-Bae for cheap and disposable reactive firepower.

 

@Sedral, don't forget that the extremely varied link options allow you to build lists where the links aren't set until the game starts! If the enemy has large numbers of Camo you can link the Haidao or a REM into the Core for SSL2, or split a Shang Ji core into several Duos if the midfield is full of templates. Running against a TAG list, going full Missile Launcher deathball might be the best option. That sort of versatility is one of the many reasons I'm looking forward to IA, as it will do a lot to let me react to enemy deployment even if I'm deploying first.

 

Ain't no Death Star with the stats Zuyong has. To play Death Stars, go MO.

Building lists in IA is going to be challenging. Here's as far as I got:

Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

9
ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28)
ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36)
<Shen Tai NCO> MULTI Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 31)
SHÀNG JÍ <Tactical Sense> Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42)
SHÀNG JÍ <Tactical Sense> Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40)
Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
ZÚYǑNG <Haris> Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27)
<Haidao Engineer> Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 37)
ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39)

5 SWC | 295 Points

Open in Infinity Army

This is probably some 320 points and is missing 1 order. More likely it's going to run one 5-man team and spread out support, or two "Haris". The point range that the Zhencha and (likely) Hulang will occupy makes a lot of sense, but I can't shake that they might be a bit on the expensive side even with the shenanigans involved.

Still, I think something along the lines of this will be the basic fireteam that I'll start building lists around:

Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5
SHÀNG JÍ <Tactical Sense> Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40)
ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
ZHANSHI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)
<Haidao> MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 45)

3.5 SWC | 142 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

Good to see you guys eagerly talk about IA, and actually guessing the way for our new sectorial.

Yeah, this is something constructive, finally.

 

I'm sorely tempted to use things like Shang Ji Core, Mowangs and Daoyings just to see how low the model count can go while still maintaining a useful order pool. I think 7 might actually be doable, but a bad idea outside Direct Action. The problem I expect to run into is that with so few models and no Auxbot-type options, defending the full DZ will be borderline impossible. Still, I'm waiting for the final release to determine what to do with Zuyongs and Shang Ji, as there is a chance they will see changes.

And I'm going to use 4 Liu Xing once, for a laugh.

 

Invincible Test
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
SHÀNG JÍ Tactical sense, Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 43)
Haidao KHD, combi rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
ZÚYǑNG HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
Tai Sheng NCO MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
Haidao Engineer, Combi rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17)
Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

That's what i got so far, assuming everything new costs around 35pts, but it miss both a Hulang (assuming they have nimbus) and a Daoying lieutenant.

Another issue i've encountered when building list is that ideally you don't want more than 10 guys, all in one group, and if you're looking for some hacker/doc support + a daoying it quickly add-up and leaves you with very little room for fireteams and other solo pieces like hulangs or yan-huo. I'm considering ditching the doc, give an automedikit to the zuyong HMG, eventually drop a paramedic somewhere and call it a day.

Edit: Truth be told, when i think about it, IA might be one of the very few cases where i'd advise building list according to opponents you want to counter instead of mission. If you don't have a zhencha/Liu xing all your specialits will start in your DZ anyway, and very specific counter builds like anti-hacking duo or "all you need to kill a pesky kamau sniper" are very expensive.

 

I think the biggest problem isn't with the Zuyong's themselves but rather the fact that they will inevitably be compared to the Riot Grrls which, for some bizarre reason, are almost identical in cost. Which greatly diminishes (at least my) appreciation for the profiles. Here's to hoping that the Shang-Ji and the Zuyong all will get price reductions across the board, especially now that the Hospitaliers got even cheaper, for reasons entirely unjustified (from a point-formula POV).

 

That's the bizarre reason I'm referring to!
But in all seriousness, I fully agree and frenzy discounts on profiles that never suffers from the penalty that the discount provides should be thrown under a burning truck IMO.

 

I don't understand how they can make Frenzy even cheaper without solving the obvious linkability exploit

 

There's a new MO army box in stores...

 

Or because this troops are IAs Signature tools and things like the NWI in HI is a common thing inside IA. If so, We were destined to be unpleased anyway due to expectations above the reality

Because building Light HIs is harder than building Bulkier ones. Building Light HIs require finesse and a dependence over critical cybernetic systems (backup systems doesn't fit in), a thing that can only be achievable in Yujing, O-12 and Aleph. And the later two get most of their High tech technology from Yujing and Pano. Of course make lighter HIs has It's drawbacks. High tech compressed in a thin frame surrounding a body. It has the fragile word embed.

And there's probably some truth about this to:

Zuyongs were the lighter HI until the moment because ithey were designed to require less materials and be easier to mass produce as the backbone of a HI army. Other factions HIs production can't be compared to yujing's

I think zuyong corelinks may be afordable unless you bring in 3 shang-jis. 135-165p. From this:
Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5
ZÚYǑNG Escopeta de Abordaje / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 26)
ZÚYǑNG Escopeta de Abordaje / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 26)
ZÚYǑNG Fusil Combi / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 27)
ZÚYǑNG (AutomediKit) Ametralladora / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (2 | 39)
Yaókòng SON-BAE Lanzamisiles Inteligente / Pulso Eléctrico. (1.5 | 18)

3.5 CAP | 136 Puntos

Abrir en Infinity Army

To this:
Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5
SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistola, Arma CC Shock. (2 | 42)
SHÀNG JÍ Lanzacohetes Pesado, Escopeta Ligera / Pistola, Arma CC Shock. (2 | 39)
ZÚYǑNG Fusil Combi / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 27)
ZÚYǑNG Fusil Combi + 1 TinBot B (Deflector N2) / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 30)
ZÚYǑNG Escopeta de Abordaje / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 26)

4.5 CAP | 164 Puntos

Abrir en Infinity Army

I expect haidaos to be cheaper than shang-jis, and closer to zuyongs (even with skills like Engineer or KHD)

And 135-165p are a good amount to bring another 4-5 guys. we will probably need a remote to fit in on the more costly ones, probably the new Panguling FTO).
The other base build is a core of 4 zhanshis+shangji... From +85points with a Shangji HRL as ARO/active piece. Increasing costs while adding more HIs to the link