Same way shooting bullets at the dude firing a missile can protect you from being hit by the missile even if your buddy next to you gets blown up by it, it's an abstraction.
well let's be realistic here. The rules are somewhat nebulous here or we wouldn't be onto page 2 of this discussion. We're going to go round and round a few more times with no real ground made, and then either @HellLois is going to step in and tell everyone how this rule is supposed to be played, or it'll get ignored and we'll wind up with different metas interpretting the interaction differently and it'll be down to each group of players to figure out which one makes the most sense to them.
I mean, I get it... as much as my eyebrow is raised. And I'm fairly close to just agreeing on the grounds that you all have been playing far longer than me. But the part in parentheses is the crux. Smoke special dodge requires that "their (left ambiguous as it directly references the "attack" prior to this) LoF is blocked (to what? Also ambiguous)...". If the LoF that needs to be blocked is the attacker's, then you are not necessarily blocking LoF to the point of impact (and couldn't protect any models there anyway per the FAQ). If the LoF that needs to be blocked is from the blast focus, then smoke is not going to block it.
Here's my internal line of reasoning: 1. Special Dodge requires you to block LOF of the Attack 2. Templates affect everyone touched by the template 3. In terms of being affected by the attack, there is not difference between primary target and secondary target 3b. Except for critical hits, which are separately called out 4. Only the attacker's MODs for the Attack is derived from the primary target Conclusion: Either Special Dodge works for any individual affected by the attack or Special Dodge doesn't work against impact template weapons at all Or, and I notice this while fact checking, we can look at Template Weapons Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment. and under Impact Template Weapons Place the Template down when you declare the Attack to determine who is affected by that Attack, as that might influence the possible second Short Skill and AROs. Singular form "who is affected by that Attack" and "is equally affected" - the only way to conclude this is that since it's the same attack and this is the attack we can use to try and Face to Face with a Special Dodge. It's simple, really. If the Impact Template hits, the resulting Template doesn't require any LOF to damage targets touched by the template. The template's effect isn't blocked by smoke to the main target nor to any of the secondary targets. Only the attack needs LOF, but the attack is not the template's effect, it is the skill execution of the enemy trooper. @Triumph To be fair, each time this is brought up a considerable amount of posts are required to specify who the smoker is trying to protect.
... Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll ... (from http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/...#Example_of_Impact_Template_weapons_and_Smoke ) Placing impact template on k-9 didn't require LOF to Devil Dog, so why smoke dodge would help?
In contrast to... Is "being attacked" the same as "being affected by an attack"? If you concede that there is a difference between being attacked and being affected by an attack, then the Devil Dog is not allowed to smoke dodge: The K9 is attacked, while the Devil Dog is only affected by that attack. So he can't Smoke-Special-Dodge. The Devil Dog is not the target, just affected by the Attack against the K9.
Can't understand those arguments... they constantly ignore one of two conditions required for smoke dodge "Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed." condition 1. NO block lof - no, you don't block lof as you can't block lof with smoke in aro to friendly troop(according to FAQ... I mean it won't be face to face) , and k-9 is the primary target to attack, and k-9 do not have smoke condition 2. YES as attack required roll
Like I wrote. There is no difference to being the primary target or secondary target as far as being affected by the template. No, I wouldn't concede to there being a difference between being attacked by an impact template and being affected by an impact template, because the rules make no such distinction. They even state the main target is "a reference" for placing the template down. P.s. such a distinction would also render Sixth Sense 2 unusable by secondary targets since SSL2 is triggered by being attacked.
You've got some serious errors in what you write in condition 1. The K-9 wouldn't be able to prevent the DDog from being affected (regardless of what equipment it has) according to the FAQ, but we're not discussing the K-9 at all so the FAQ is irrelevant. The HRL attack requires LOF. DDog has LOF so they can respond with BS Attack of their own. If DDog shoots a smoke targeting the K-9, the HRL attack will have its LOF broken by the Smoke template. Thereby fulfilling the requirements for Special Dodge, allowing the DDog to FTF the attack - BUT the K-9 WILL take normal roll in accordance to the FAQ. Whether the K-9 or the DDog is the "main valid target" doesn't matter as far as Special Dodge is concerned.
I don't understand the issue here. Is it : can the DD protect the K9 with his smoke ? Then answer is no because the smoke special dodge doesn't allow to protect someone other than yourself Is it: can the DD protect himself with his smoke ? If the DD is the main target, he can use his smoke, because he is facing a BS attack. Impact template weapon attack are still BS Attack so a LoF is a basic requirement. If the DD is not the main target, then he can't use his smoke because he is not facing a BS attack. He is "affected by the Attack declared" but not the target of said attack. As LoF is not necessary here, smoke is irrelevant
I agree that LOF will be broken, but unfortunately only on next order. Because you don't break LOF to K-9. And you don't prevent impact template from "landing". ---> Q: Can a miniature throw a Smoke Grenade to protect another figure from an attack? A: No. In a similar way to a Dodge, the Special Dodge provided by throwing a Smoke Grenade can only protect the throwing trooper. --->
Again. That FAQ is completely irrelevant. We're not trying to protect the K-9. We're letting the smaller doggo die. In flaming agony.
yes he mate impact templates 101. Mahtmori has the right of it, the rules make no such distinctions for impact templates. in actual fact the rules go out of their way to argue that the targets are the same, they are affected by the attack and are able to F2F against that attack. It triggers all the clauses for Special dodge. Deal with it, accept it and move on as toadchild has done
The main issue with this interatcion aren't the rules but the people reading it. If you translate the requirements into conditions to be fulfilled for a program to work with everything is rather easy. ML shoots Phoenix and catches a Myrmidion in the blast. Let's say they aren't linked to keep this a bit easier. a) both Phoenix and Myrmidion can draw LOF to the ML Phoenix drops Smoke in between himself and the attacker - FTF against the ML, no effect on the Myrmidion. Phoenix drops Smoke in between the Myrmidion and the attacker - Normal Rolls, no effect on the Myrmidion. Myrmidion drops Smoke in between Phoenix and the attacker - FTF against the ML, no effect on Phoenix. Myrmidion drops Smoke in between himself and the attacker - Normal Rolls, no impact on Phoenix. b) only Phoenix can draw LOF to the ML Same as a) for Phoenix. Myrmidion can't react with Smoke FTF or Normal roll as Smoke is a BS Attack and requires LOF (or special permissions like AROs through Smoke). Instead he can only dodge at -3 as allowed per template exception - FTF against the ML, no effect on Phoenix. c) only the Myrmidion can draw LOF to the ML (template is fired from Pheonix's back arc) Phoenix can only dodge at -3 as allowed per template exception. FTF against the ML, no effect on the Myrmidion Same as a) for the Myrmidion. d) the ML can only draw LOF to Phoenix, but both Phoenix and Myrmidion can draw LOF to the attacker. (i.e. the ML declared an IDLE+Shoot and the secondary target is not in his front arc). This one merely serves as an example to show why there is no requirement to block LOF in between himself and the ML for secondary targets. Same as a) for Phoenix. Same as a) for the Myrmidion. To a lot of people I've met this doesn't make much sense on the game board, probably because one model smoking works against multiple attackers allows a FTF (i.e. against multiple BS Attacks). Or because secondary targets do not have to block LOF to themselves and still get a FTF (which is weird).
Gonna pull the N2 card on you here. That's how it worked in N2. The template happened first and any secondary targets only got attacked and affected if and only if the template attack won its FTF. In N3, the template attack affects all targets equally and immediately, and the main target is used as reference.
This is the point the discussion turns on. The position taken by @daboarder and @Mahtamori asserts that: The DD is a target of the attack, just not the main target. LOF is necessary. The relevant LOF is that between the attacker and the K-9. Consequently, by obscuring the LOF between the attacker and the K-9 the DD will force a FTF with the BS Attack. @sorniak. The argument is that LOF is broken so the requirements of Special Dodge are met, it just can't protect the K-9 because Special Dodge can never protect 3rd parties. Re: 'target'. I'm not actually getting why it's relevant whether whether the DD is the main target or only 'affected by the Attack'. Smoke allows the user to 'avoid Attacks' not 'avoid Attacks where they are the target'. You're hardly avoiding attacks if you're still affected by them. And that's leaving aside the point @Mahtamori makes where all things affected by an attack are generally considered targets of the attack. Edit: remember to check the thread before posting something you got distracted while writing. :)
LOF is not considered for Devil Dog, attack with impact do not require LOF to devil dog... Otherwise, using mr. Mahtamori logic, I can attack someone and if there is a model with mimitism in blast template - I would have -3 mod to face-to-face with model who has mimitism. And another thing, Smoke as a template will land only on an conclusion of order.
The Smoke isn't blocking the LOF to the Devil Dog. It's blocking LOF between the main target and the attacker. And yes, Smoke will only land at resolution. Special Dodge, however, applies its effects to force the FTF. @Teslarod's example with the Myrmidon saving itself with Smoke vs the ML illustrates it cleanly.
Mimetism on a nearby Kazak Scout won't affect the FTF because the rules state quite clearly that MODs are only derived from the main target, so the Scout won't get the benefit of their Camouflage when they shoot the HRL user with their Sniper Rifle, but it will still be a Face to Face.
