Interesting how you seem to selectively choose all the minorities to justify colouring the majority with the same brush... Especially when the Oznat and the Raicho are evolutions of the same fighters. Zerat -> Oznat -> Raicho is the progression. So you've really only picked out the characteristics of 3 minorities of Morat military to tar the lot of them as Savages :P I wasn't trying to explain everything about Morat society with the tie to WW2 Japan, merely pointing out that their ideology suits this as a theme - Honour code, lacking compoassion for enemies, willing to commit suicide as an individual to benefit the greater war effort... And that the outsider's assessment, with no regard for their history or culture, is what brands them "Savages" - just as war propaganda did on our planet.
Almost like having to use tools other than "BS attack in +3 range band" was part of the game ay IJW ;) Gee I wish there were some for of cheap disposable troops that could automatically hit the opponent without having to make a F2F roll. And that said troops had some means of moving across the table without being seen....
In this day and age of Fake News and false equivalency in debate, I think it's important that bad behaviour be called out in public. So that people see terrible ideas are challenged and debunked. So, I need you to know that you're an idiot.
Back to actual discussion though - as I said earlier, all I can envision them changing for Sogs would be; - Auto-medkit + V:NWI +Full Auto (of some level) or +Fatality L1 This removes the Shasvastii-ish wargear and brings the Sog more in line with the most recent S5 HI - Daiyokai and Mowang - in terms of resilience, although we retain the Arm 6 advantage. Any cc skill (MA/NBW) would bring Stealth, which further limits hacking threat against Sog to the degree that I don't think there is appetite for it. @wuji speaking to your earlier commentary about Ph on Morats - I actually kinda wish they had removed Dr Worm from the ava chart. I wish they had, instead, gone all in on the lack of doctors and upgraded our Paramedic profiles to carry Medjectors (what the Hakims got). This would give us a less effective healing option, but available in more places - and I feel it would be very Morat for reinforcing that stoicism and tenacity to keep in the fight. Morat 1 stabs Morat 2 with the Medjector, saying, "I've had worse - back on your feet." I've always felt Dr Worm to be very out of place, and his existence makes Kurgats an unlikely inclusion in any force.
I do also want to add one other thing about Morats and the comparison to Orcs. In all honesty that's what they are. Infinity is a far more hard sci-fi game than 40k or is clearly not dungeons and dragons but just like Klingons we're Orcs, so are Morats. CB and so many people can try paint them as so.ething else and yet still that's what their appearance, CCWs their aesthetics art and design and their lore, tons and tons and tons of paragraphs saying Brutal or Savage or some other word that evokes some primal feelings of a somewhat simpler time. So I can't say that I see them as Imperial Japan, I see them as being creatures that evoke the basic and true rules for living social creatures. There are clear hierarchies, there's clear inter clan (regiment/race i.e. Kornak) competition. Promoted Violence. I understand your disappointment in upgrading other forces over Morats on the behalf of CB. But I clearly cannot agree with your perspective of only seeing them as Imperialists. Imperialism if anything is large scale tribalism but imperialism doesn't promote through violence it promotes through obediance. Sun Tzu wrote the benefits of taking the enemies supplies not the supplies of adjacent battalions. He served the emperor. Their is something more Spartan in that behavior and though the Spartans were trained to be more effective together they first trained to be fully capable on their own running the risk of a violent and premature death as a youth. On an off note, anyone see Kornak as a quasi Epictetus or Spartacus?
I would indeed take NWI over Auto medikit but then that high PH is really really all on it's lonesome, which would exacerbate the question even further, why no CC. At the very least I would settle for much higher raw stats... CC 24-25 no skills... Still doesn't stop a regular myrm fro. Taking the advantage but doesn't leave it too bad, it does however make him incredibly deadly against skirmishers he can't outshoot... I whole heartedly agree with the Dr worm sentiment. I actually hated fielding that model but did it in order to feel competitive. After looking at the medjektor for the first time right now, I'm actually surprised Morats did not get that. It suits them so well and so many people posited such a thing as suiting for them as a full Dr never would feel right among their ranks. Either you could walk your ass back to sick bay with your right arm in your backpack or you can die on your shield so to speak. One other thing about Morats being Orcs over imperial Japan. Sotaraks a mini battles so etimee to the death to lead the charge in battle. One Morat facing others as a representative of his regiment, pretty honor focused I'd say.
I'm still not seeing it - just had a quick read through basically all of the unit descriptions (on Human-sphere.com), which lifts them from the books/unit release descriptions. The closest to your description I could find; Oznat - "Brutal", in reference only to the methods used to kill the alpha-male of a Hungry pack and assume command Raicho - piloted by a "bloodthirsty alien" Yaogat - Indiscriminate Literally every other unit description is chock full of references to honour, to being disciplined almost to a fault. Even the description for the Daturazi doesn't paint them as being brutal or savage - it does seem to indicate that their practice of hand-to-hand fighting, or "Dirty War", is looked down upon by most other Morats. I could see any of the "bare-knuckle fighting" of Raktoraks in their entry either. Admittedly, this website lacked a page dealing with the Sotarak - which is a fight between Morats for the honour of being the spearhead. But I'm not getting even a remote feel of this unbridled, Ork-like Savage that you seem to think the Morats are. Hell, the story included in the entry for the Raktorak described a particular Raktorak who was acting as a butler, and ran through the midst of a battlefield with a refrigerated vessel to deliver an alcoholic beverage to his commander. >_>
And again, the parallel to Imperial Japan is not because I think they're the same (thought there are similarities, and the Morats seem largely modelled off the Japanese Oni) - but that outsiders misconstrue their actions. Japanese in WW2; Troops would suicide to defeat the enemy - Kamikaze planes Civilians would suicide to kill the enemy Troops would commit suicide to avoid dishonour of being capture/failing - this ritual suicide could also involve another Japanese soldier cutting off their head Because of their honour system, surrender was unthinkable - leading to them treating enemy POWs incredibly harshly Western troops didn't understand the honour system, and viewed them as being harsh and savage for employing such measures. For using swords and bayonets to engage in Banzai charges that seemed to be the acts of crazed individuals. These things, without an understanding of the culture - or even with it, but from the perspective of a different culture - appear to be "Savage". This is how I feel they are alike to the Morats. The "Savagery" they're accused of by the Humans is less actual savagery as it is a completely lack of understanding of their culture and honour requirements. If you surrender, you are without honour and will be made a slave. This isn't due to some desire for cruelty or need to fill unwholesome desires - it is because you have proved yourself to be worth nothing as an individual, so you will be put to use under someone who is. A description of Yaogats being "indiscriminate" when fighting, killing troops and civilians, is probably, again, Morats applying Morat logic to Humans - if you're a civilian, why are you near the frontlines? If you're here, you should have some honour and at least put up a fight - cos that's what we'd do.
I didn't say unbridled, I said sophisticated savages. I think unbridled would be CHA. Anyways, this is the last sentence on the back of the MAF box and also the blurb on the online store. I'll give a look on the individual units if you like, I guess it might be better if I had the books but I don't. I do want you to to think about this though. NCOs amongst typical American infantry runs you about 1 every 8 guys or so. I want you to think about on average 10 Morats going into a room and only 1 coming out. 10, not 20, 50, or 100 but 10. That means in close succession he likely beat 3 other Morat, possibly 4 with his bare hands and maybe two of them at the same time... Doesn't matter what regiment he came from, he still has to be a bad ass in order to make Rank. Sorry man, but Raktorak is really all it takes for me to know what military life for Morats is like. I consider myself not even remotely a bad ass but for the brief time I was in, I took some professional training and one of the things the teacher did as a test for me training under him was a sort of endurance test. It was either the other person quits, starts blessing or someone went down. First person quit, second I cut and was seeing stars third person made me blead. Again, none of were what I would say bad asses but think about everyone else in the room KOd or otherwise incapacitated and you're not. I'd give Raktoraks NBW and NWI.
I'm just picking a few words or phrases k, but I want to reiterate I see Morats differently, for me they are an Ubermensch, a hybridization of warrior and Hunter and professional soldier. What's below however is just what I can pull from the store descriptions and only giving the examples that evoke the warrior/hunter or Savage aspect for argument's sake, the other side of that coin is the sophisticate. They are then, sophisticated savages imo. Rasyat-Vicious, extreme violence Kurgat-Brutality, scars worn with pride like medals, warriors Yaogat- twisted/violent Morat logic, merciless, thugs and murderers Vanguard- fierce, menacing, bloodied, brutal,... Datz- tearing the life out of enemy with bare hands You already mentioned Raicho and Oznat Surprisingly enough the Sogarat and Raktorak description carries no serious words of note yet still implies much by mentioning their reputation for being the best among Morats (the described violent race) or of how they make Rank by being better in all ways to non officers, that would include CC. Honorable mention goes to Rodok for "More Morat than Morat" haha Bland only containing Professional soldier vocabulary and verbage AWARD goes to Sogarats baby brother the Suryat My conclusion is, yet again CB put things together in random places. That being said, no matter the argument, their are more indicators that Morat are all 3 factors at exact same time and not just one.
I think this draws us closer to an agreement. I believe my term Sophisticated Savage is close to accurate enough for both of us. Maybe.
Thanks for sparing me from having to do that. "And if I'm being honest, like bluntly honest, I my self am not entirely opposed to slavery, mostly, sure, entirely, not at all." And thus we knew nothing of worth will ever be said by this person.
IQ over 127 and a hard recognition that violence was the first form of communication and will always be the last. Because I appreciate the world in more than one dimension you resort to name calling ... I'll happily take that over having to think like the majority of humanity any and every day the week. And just so we're clear here, from the perspective of a slave owner, slavery isn't bad. Furthermore in not too long a time robots will be the new slaves, do you think Ai and humanity can cohabitate. If so, I would like to hear your theory. Note, I said mostly opposed... There are extenuating circumstances I imagine apply to most nuances of civilization. For instance, if Nietzsche is right about the will to power, then the fact we live in a society where all people play by rules of exploitation or being exploited yet alone tax slaves but no one does anything about it or talks about must mean they themselves are okay with being slaves.
The Morats are interesting. Psychologically they are extremely aggressive, more so than humans, and they live in large social groups where hierarchy is constantly established by aggressive competition. Their psychology meant they would have destroyed themselves if they hasn't developed a culture that managed to channel that into an internally stable military junta, and they have a mono-culture because 1) they can't coexist between cultures before the Knife Renaissance and 2) after it, the dominant culture wiped out and absorbed everything else. They're more like violent, militaristic Vulcans tbh, and they do kind of a similar thing where they subsume their own emotions in the discipline of military order.
Read my response before passing to quick a judgment, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt, I know most people are immediately offput by that kind of statement, but thinking about it deeper is what it clearly requires.
Just read the response the guy above, nobody says what I said unless they thought about the subject hard enough on their own. I don't give default responses.
Wow. Just, wow. And off to the "ignore" with you my objectively evil former interlocutor. Just in case anyone with @wuji on ignore already is wondering what the hell is going on in this previously normal conversation, he advocated slavery and then when challenged followed up with: "And just so we're clear here, from the perspective of a slave owner, slavery isn't bad. Furthermore in not too long a time robots will be the new slaves, do you think Ai and humanity can cohabitate. If so, I would like to hear your theory. Note, I said mostly opposed... There are extenuating circumstances I imagine apply to most nuances of civilization. For instance, if Nietzsche is right about the will to power, then the fact we live in a society where all people play by rules of exploitation or being exploited yet alone tax slaves but no one does anything about it or talks about must mean they themselves are okay with being slaves."
