I ran the numbers, that's a bad idea. I'd also consider the cost of the Sog, even in your active turn if you're not spending order on him it should be because your grabbing an objective or killing something else the Sog can't see. If you're in a situation where he can't go forward because something else is holding him up, then what good is 1/6 your army. The thing that I didn't see argued against or for in the past however, none of us seemed to be upset about leaving him vulnerable to hackers as a sort of balance for turning him into a one Morat army in regards to ranged and melee combat. I'll stop myself from picking the Sog apart bit by bit and just say, you can see how it's a bit mixed and unsure of what it really wants to be. Not a gun platform, but not a roaming terror, not quite active turn model but definitely not reactive, close to being CC capable but and gunfighter but falls short on both counts, As heavy as a boulder, but why give it legs and an axe etc...
Tanking the Sup Fire Mrym to Dodge past? It is true. Not so perfect. But sometimes better to take a wound (dice calculator says good chance of 1 wound) to get past an obstacle than sacrifice lots of orders trying to beat it when its something you are very bad at beating good.
MAF is already awash with needlessly raised (and never used) CC stats. I would appreciate them stepping back from this because it is just bloat making our troops more expensive.
What would you say about that very high CC, PH and AP axe... There's a congruency that is not being met, that, I'm sure you can agree on. Also, did you read what I said about if the whole of a faction/sectorials is to be forced to take something at any given cost, in this case you mean high PH and CC, the best thing to do is layer up with redundancy and optimization toward using what's already been pushed toward an expensive cost to an efficient offensive and defensive use. While you may have a problem with many Morat units being more expensive than many other factions, it's best for us to be honest about the problem: CB slapped the Morats together with poor design intention. They got lucky with ASS and it's clear their intention with JSA and USARF. I don't want to wish list as I've done it a million times but I'll say it's not hard to turn MAF into an efficient killing machine that would be fun to play any kind of way with many varients of lists and they still would not be OP. We have to remember that Morats should have a discount for the purposeful lack of marker state and understand that Frenzy is what makes Myrms cheap. The focus should be congruency and redundancy and the rest will fall into place.
@wuji I think you're severely underestimating how powerful Full Auto actually is. You've chosen the absolutely worst example, which is an ODD troop in suppressive fire, to compare it against, but remember that ODD is not that common and suppressive fire has some penalties too. However, consider the following: Full Auto both gives you an extra shot AND nerfs the enemy shooting back at you. That's huge. Most ODD and TO common troops are BS12 so an hmg sog with full auto will be hitting them on 7's while they're hitting the sog on 9's. I'd take those risks, and that's assuming I can't just suicide a krakot or ikadron to deal with their TO. Against anything else, even normal cammo or mimetism, the sogarat either evens out the BS or has only 1 more or 1 less. But he's throwing 5 dice! Full auto is the reason the Kriza Borac was called OP at release, and it remains one of the most powerful skills of the game on virtue of just not being counterable. You can't shut down full auto with a MSV or White Noise or fire or anything. The only thing you can do is hide in your reactive turn and engage only in the active. And that gives the enemy a lot of control over the board. As much as I don't like Full Auto on the sogarat, I really thing you're not seeing the big picture here, mate.
I apologize for making it seem "overly" lacking. Iirc when running the dice, it was only MX2 that out gunned FA2. Sure Myrms aren't the easiest comparison but I use them like any good argument, I'd rather Steel man the troop instead of straw man. If the liklihood of the Sog getting any other bump besides FA2 is nil, I'm sure enough would agree even if only silently, they'd like congruency in the Sog. My argument is simple, he's so close to being CC capable, clearly pays for it, why not give him that extra ability to kill and defend a different way. A Myrm should be a speed bump to a Sog at those cost differences, not the other way around is what I'm saying, in active turn any warband can get him. I want even odds... I'll stop there, okay.
The Kriza isn't remotely OP, even when we all knew that FAL2 stacked with Suppression (which RAW it does and as it's not in the FAQ I personally would say it does stack). If you couldn't deal with a Kriza in Suppression I question how you deal with, say, a Hac Tao or Swiss Guard in suppression, as they're even more effective in that role! The Kriza just doesn't lose the -3 to MSV, but it does lose it to being shot in the back/if it doesn't shoot back for whatever reason, like dodging or facing a combined order etc. Not being able to deal with the Kriza was people just assuming point and click shooting should overrun anything on the board, which is not true. Smoke, CC, long ranged fire, E/M Grenades in spec fire, surprise shot, flanking... all of these were and are very effective against the KB.
I've definitely been gone too long, am I reading that FA bonuses were used in the reactive turn, stacked with supfire, whilst many many other skills were excluded? Iirc, their was even a limitation on supfire and fireteams right? How was FA allowed to get a pass?
If that is simple and cheap, for 1 or 2 points, I like it. Because you are extremely right. Sogarat is ALMOST a CC guy, but isn't receiving the full benefit of what he pays for. (I'd like the same for Oznat also).
Morats should have more NBW. While for the Oznat I'd be happy with MA2 (thus making her an absurd thread against heavy stuff, since she'd be hitting them at a ridiculous STR16+1 for every hungry in contact), the Sogarat really needs NBW. NBW would allow them to level the field against MA wielding badasses while not actually surpassing them in that area, while he could bully the crap out of chaff and especially infiltrators that tried to sneak around to put a shotgun in their back.
Yeah Oznat is definitely right on the cusp, literally anything would be definitive and some sort of anti camo or "hunting" skill would separate her from the proverbial pack, make her viable in Vanilla too.
Also, since I put my Avatar back up I guess I can say I'm more interested than I thought... When is the drop date so we know everything Morats are getting?
I would say that the high CC stat and AP ccw is existing bloat that we could afford to cut from the profile. They probs won't - but I'd prefer less meaningless taxed stats on my models who are already taxed too high for being their race in the firstplace. I'm actually doubtful they'd add MA or NBW to Sogs in any case - it'd be seen as "too powerful" to be stacking Stealth with their existing immunity to Oblivion. I know that was a big argument previously when I was theorising changes to the Raicho (pre-changes, obviously), and had suggested it get MA/NBW to back up it's Monster Hunter fluff.
Yeah - RIP. My motivation for working on reviving my Morats is pretty dead until I see these updates... And my intention was to have them painted and serviceable for CanCon in January...
So that's actually the thing I believe I understand more than most, for every little point added to any unit or a whole faction bryond the game's base as is the case with Morats, the more reason to take that unit/force into the realm of elite do all things well direction. Morats contain a few things that demand attention: 1st foremost is the Morat rule. It's applied to the whole damn race and adopts their namesake. That right their is a kick in the nuts to start with because on average it eats up 20 points of your force every game, is not chosen like choosing a CoC unit, does not grant a specialist, is not always beneficial, in the past some missions superceded it maybe still. 2nd higher PH than average. Should serve one of two purposes defensive or offensive. Defensive would be doging away or using paramedics or auto medkits. Offensive would be applying PH to CC damage or throwing grenades. Only three units have grenades that are not smoke nor a character. And only one unit with Auto medkits whilst having a doctor on the field is far better than a paramedic since the PH of most is 12... 3rd CC, There are 3 Morat units with with high CC and skills to match the points already spent on the attribute. While there are 2 Morat units with high attributes and no skills to match the points already spent on said attributes yet alone the complimentary aspect of PH and CC. While at the same time their are another 3 units with reasonably higher than average for their peers in the rest of the game and 2 units that could do with a bump (one can be argued against while the other is kind of baffling that they are not already tasked to taking at the cheaper warband trash). If any attributes or skills are to be kept one should look hard at how complimentary or optimized they are. Even Morat WIP is 13 across the board, some don't need it that high while other could be argued for higher. The force being bland across the board is not fun nor supportive in function. Optimization toward 10 model lists would allow the force to shine. Pushing them in the direction of 15+ excluding hungries is a recipe for a force that doesn't look anything like what we've been sold... One could argue the removal of the extra point of PH or 1-2 of CC on most of the Morats. It would surely trim them down but does the Morat rule alone make you feel like you are playing Morats. Given every blurb you've read about them. Great Savage hunting warrior race with loads of social engineering to honor the regiment instead of oneself so that they don't rip each other apart so their civilization had the opportunity to conquer star systems. So Savage that slavery is an honored past time... So dedicated to hunting, there's animal skin on the Raicho? Yeah they are just little dudes. But their are two ways to look at it since people spend money on it. Either you're concerned with winning another way that seems to work for other forces or you're concerned with winning the way you first imagined these guys winning. For me therr are a few things that grabbed my attention for Morats that sad to say is misleading. The first is Achilles holding a Morat head like the predator. Predator and Achilles only takes trophies of things he deems worthy or a challenge... The next is that blurb about Raktoraks doing a Fight Club free for all to make Rank, that shit is hardcore and not too long ago our own military had plenty of it's own rituals for hazing. Not making rank per say but gaining respect. I've heard my share of fucked upness including folks being ghosted overboard. Lastly is this image. The two I can make out are definitely a Sogarat and a Kurgat in CQB with knights, it's fuckin cool looking, throw in all the CCWs on the models and you have a selling point that doesn't live up to it's hype. If not unit wise than at least faction wise we could live with.
I would challenge your statement of them being a "Savage" race. Uncomprimising, yes. Dispassionate, yes. The takeaway I've had from their overall fluff is that Morats are the Alien equivalent of World War 2 Japanese. They have a stringent honour code, they act for the whole rather than the individual, they have no respect or passion for those who are captured or choose to surrender. The only "savage"-ness is a lack of understanding their culture/honour drives - what they do, they do with reason or for tradition... Not because they are a bloodthirsty, Ork-equivalent, like so many people seem to see them. Further - "So savage that slavery is an honoured past time" is also misleading - because those Morats who have honour DON'T use slaves. Slaves are for the little people, the non-warriors of the Morat society. Ranked, fighting Morats do everything themselves. And whilst Slavery itself is a "savage" concept to us, as enlightened human beings, you need to remember that most of the Earth's civilisations used Slaves... And you wouldn't generally describe every classical or renaissance civilisation on our planet as "savage" purely because of their involvement with the slave trade. CB have already displayed a total disregard for their own fluff when designing units - so trying to argue the fluff justification for stuff is a bit of a sour pill to follow. The description of the Raicho is basically tailor-made for Full Auto. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with our new Raicho profile, in fact I totally love it, but it is a complete and total shift away from everything the fluff described it as. (I do still lol at the fact it's description is half it's weight being additional ammunition for it's weapons, and they gave it a limited ammo (2) weapon on the new profile) Finally, I don't ever expect my MAF to win tourneys. They would need to overhaul everything about them to make them a truly top tier, competitive faction for ITS... What I can't stand, though, is the vast and all-encompassing reworks taking place on other "low-tier" factions being so much more pronounced than what we're getting. What has been hinted and shown is virtually a token gesture compared to what MO are getting, which is a true N2 to N3 upgrade.
Except the Japanese did not hunt, nor did they wear the animal parts on their heads as Oznat do or the pelt as Raicho does. Nor did the Japanese make NCO rank by having a bareknuckle Royal Rumble. Nor did the Japanese have a religious sect practice a form of fighting considered beneath the rest of their society (forget the original words for Daturazi). And if I'm being honest, like bluntly honest, I my self am not entirely opposed to slavery, mostly, sure, entirely, not at all. That being said I would characterize myself as a sophisticated Savage only because I know the lengths I would go to for survival including proactively appearing like a bad monster if I've already played the long game out in my head etc etc. Just cause CB goes against the grain from time to time does not make their decisions correct. You your self happily object to the clear sideling MAF has received over the years and now other forces are getting major buffs. Like I said selling points of MAF unfulfilled. I do want to clarify however, I do not ever condone the ideology that just because ones lore/fluff describes them as the best in the sphere, they should be. I do however support best within one owns ranks and approach to combat match description and aesthetic as well being comparable to opposing factions. Like I would never want Sogarats to be Achilles or Joan, or Kornak to be Saladin or Sun Tzu. But I would like a Sogarat to be along the lines of a tankier knight perhaps... NBW and a shooting skill being a more quintessential Morat flavor instead of MA and raw BS. What I'm say about the sophisticated Savage part is I perceive Morats as sophisticated savages. Taking best about human being actually. One could argue the worst but it has somehow come out to weird hybridization in my mind of Nietzche's Ubermensch and a sort of socialism like that found in Starship Troopers.
