Why you should only run 2 if you can have for 10+ points another unit who can fill a different role? You can even rambo with it without loosing it's order.
Frequently for me because that is 20+ points I could be spending on a unit that provides an order or I am already tight on SWC.
Yeah personally to my mind I run the 2 10pt specialists and then Netrods and call it a day. Combined I'm paying 28pts for: 3 Orders, 2 Specialists. by the time I'm adding in a 3rd body I'm now investing a minimum of ~70% of the already invested points for whatever I pick up. It definitely feels like I gain a minimal amount for a massive reinvestment. But then I can see where a Mk3/5/2 could be an asset.
Are there any other any other Posthumans then Mk.1, Mk.2 and Mk.5 FO? Edit: Ups, Mk.2 is at 21+ points, my fault. But it's always the first Posthumen I take.
I frequently leave the Mk2 home. The threat of it when there are only 1 or 2 other Proxies on the table is almost as good as the unit in my experience.
Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 PROXY Mk.1 Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PROXY Mk.2 Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) NETROD . (0 | 4) NETROD . (0 | 4) 0.5 SWC | 49 Points Open in Infinity Army 49 Points, 3 Orders, 3 Specialists (2 in the midfield, one of them in HD...)
Thats still a 71% increase in cost for a 50% increase in specialists and 0% more orders :P But TRZ you say, that 21 points couldn't buy you another HD model not like the Mk2. And while I don't disagree. The 21 pts could buy me an awful lot of other little upgrades. And that is essentially what the MK2 is. An upgrade to your Post Human slot. Grabbing more engineers or the like. Thats not to say I think 3 Post Humans are bad. Just I feel like you get into a wierd diminishing returns question. Where is the optimal Post human investment? I dont know. I could also see the argument that the optimal is a mk2. And a Mk 5. Its 39 pts for 2 Infiltrating specialists and 3 orders essentially. Which would make the upgrade to add the mk1. Only 10pts, and only about 25% more for the extra specialist. Interesting how perspective changes value...
I often take three PostHumans. While it does lower the overall point efficiency of the unit, having an extra body on the board, even without an extra order can be very helpful. Especially if you are running only a single combat group. I would rather run a 10 order list with 3 Posthuman Proxies, than an 11 order list with 2 Proxies. Also my third Proxy choice is usually one of the 10pt ones, and in Aleph there aren't a whole lot of choices in the 10pt range. Not to mention telling your opponent that he has to kill 3 bodies plus two netrods before I lose an order has a bigger psychological impact than if he just has to kill 2 bodies to deny me an order. (Always take netrods with your Posthumans!)
Counting NWI we have what? 6 wounds to kill in 3 different spots, including some firepower and specialists with undying order. Yeah. 60 pts its still cheap - 6 wounds! DAAAMN! Thats bargain. And we dont even lost order after they die if we have netrod lol.
And a perfectly disposable miniature. Your opponent will have to spend orders to remove it, without gaining anything, not even an order advantage, since this mini doesn't give you an order to begin with. Don't just look at what you gain, look at what the opponent lose. Mk.2 sniper all day :)
??? I'm just saying that if you take a third posthuman body, even though it does not gives you any more order, and even if it is not a specialist, it's still a perfectly disposable walking pain for your opponent, and that has a value too.TheRedZealot was only taking into account what he was gaining on his side and not what the opponent had to take. I'll try to say it in other words: The topic was: if you take a Mk.1 and a Mk.5, you have 1 order, 2 specialists (one of them being a more than decent fighter) for 20 pts. If you take a third body, let's say a Mk.2 sniper or a Mk.4 HRL (these are the 2 most obvious), you are paying points that gives you no additionnal orders, and maybe another specialist (mk.2 hacker). And i was saying that this additionnal miniature, even if it does not gives you more orders, will still need your opponent to spend his own to remove it, and it won't be that easy. And he won't gain anything else from downing this miniature, since it does not gives you anything to begin with. When you shoot a standard miniature, you're essentially trading one of your orders to remove both a piece (ARO or active) and one order each turn from the opponent's pool. But here, you only remove the piece, you don't remove an order. I don't know how you came to the conclusion i was talking about spending the order of a hidden miniature when it reveals - or maybe i didnt understood what you were saying.
Its not a bad thought. Does the cost to your opponent outweigh the cost to yourself? In my experience I would generally say no. But I also very much enjoy using units like the Asura, Ruderas, Marut, etc. Which does mean I need to account for those points elsewhere in my lists. For example over the weekend we ran a tourney. Limited Insertion, Engineering Deck, Unmasking, Frostbyte. In both my lists (Spoilered below) I ran A Mk1 Hacker, Mk2 Hacker and a Mk5. I made heavy use of Dakini, Zaiyin, Asura, Arjuna, and Yadu. In all I think I spent ~5 orders on my Post Humans, which involved one button push, 1 Supportware and 1 Attack on an exposed raktorak. While I dont think the Posthumans were useless. I just also felt like I could have easily dropped one and used those points elsewhere in a non LI game. The only unit I used less than the Post Humans was the Shukra and he mostly just hung out doing his thing keeping me safe and even he was responsible for fighting a Fiday at a key moment. Spoiler: Frostbyte + Engineering Deck What's cooler than being cool? ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 ASURA Lieutenant L2 Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 72) YADU MULTI Rifle, E/Marat, Drop Bears (Throwing Weapon) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36) DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) SHUKRA (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PROXY Mk.2 Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) ARJUNA Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37) x2 KIRANBOT E/Marat, Cybermines / Electric Pulse. (8) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Spoiler: Unmasking Masking tape ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 ASURA Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device Plus UPGRADE: Redrum) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 78) ZAYIN Rebot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) SHUKRA (Chain of Command) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) ARJUNA Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37) x2 KIRANBOT E/Marat, Cybermines / Electric Pulse. (8) PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PROXY Mk.2 Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) 4.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army
I agree in that it's something dependant on the opponent. I mean, you have control on your orders, whereas you can only try to lure/bait/trap your opponent into wasting his own orders. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and there is often little you can do about it. So you may very well have wasted these points. But it's so satisfying when you suddenly reveal some Mk.2 sniper, shoot down some squishy target (a specialist, a weak link member ...) and then see your opponent being unable to finish what he wanted to do because he now has to deal with this threat, and even if he does, he won't have enough orders to finish his moves. Another use for those minis, quite different, is to "sacrifice" them during the active turn, knowing you won't lose that much. I like using my Mk.2 hacker as some assassins, running deep into the opponent area, killing his weak pieces. Even if he retaliates, he won't take me that much. Mk.3 and Mk.5 are also good candidates for that. If they kill, let's say, 2 or 3 cheerleaders and requires 2 orders to be killed, that's already a very good trade given their prices.
Unpopular opinion time: I think the Mk5 forward observer is overrated... For it's points it's okay - 10 points gets you an NWI model with em grades and 2xsmg. I just don't feel it's that great a profile, mainly because of no visual mods or armour. Just, it feels lacking. It's a forward deployed unit with no visual mods, medium armour and short range weapons :/
Ok. Now I'm officially speechless. You bet it'll be an unpopular opinion. I didn't track the discussion in this thread, please tell me you're trolling.
