Was OSS released early just so TAk can get a punching doll?

If you had to write an optimized TAK list what would it be?

 

I'd start with something like this:
Tartary Army Corps
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 6 2 1
IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)
SCOUT (Forward Observer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
ASSAULT PACK . (0 | 25)
HANDLER Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (- | 10)
x3 ANTIPODE AP CC Weapon. (- | 15)
SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
STRELOK (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
STRELOK (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
STRELOK (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)

GROUP 2 7 1
VETERAN KAZAK AP HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 47)
LINE KAZAK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
LINE KAZAK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
LINE KAZAK Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
STRELOK K-9 Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines + 1 K-9 Antipode / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
K-9 ANTIPODE Trench-hammer, AP CC Weapon. (8)
ASSAULT PACK . (0 | 25)
HANDLER Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (- | 10)
x3 ANTIPODE AP CC Weapon. (- | 15)

5 SWC | 298 Points

Open in Infinity Army

But I'm not an experienced Ariadna player myself (just an experienced opponent, although against vanilla, not TAK), and lists can change depending on the mission set and how practiced I'm with different troops. For one thing, the K-9 Antipode might be removed, given the 2 Antipode Packs. Or one Antipode Pack replaced with Dog Warrior, that'll work too.

 

TAK does seem really strong to me. Ariadna is popular in my group,a nd both of our best players play it and are very tough to ever beat. They both started TAK and I just tarted OSS, and my first few games have gone very badly. I did also play against a Haqqislam list, and that was just fine to beat. But TAK seems very tough. It seems like nothing really works against them, and they have answers for everything. I think it just seems like that though. But they have too much camoflauge for my MSV, and too many mines. And they don't seem to care about my mines at all. And their assault packs kill everything. last game Assault Pack used sensor to reveal Dart and two Naga, and then killed all three. Very, very tough for me. Iknwo it will get better as I play vs them more, and as I learn OSS better, but right now very tough. last

 

this style of list isnt actually that scary if you have the tools for it (and in the current meta you really should) Such as sensor which can easily ruin that midfield camo spam in 2-3 orders. usually without significant risk and while achieving other objectives too.
outside of that the rest of the list is very prone to getting alpha struck hard, you lack pieces that are able to stand and fight if they have too and the Vet Kazak is too valuable as your primary ARO clearer to really risk sitting out in the open.

TAKs major problem is really a lack of reactive firepower, They play a shell gmae in reactive and if they cant hide behind their camo markers they are vulnerable.

Its almost na inversion of USARF actually.

 

Once again another thread where the new-ness of a faction with combinations of skills well known leads to exaggerated theories of "power" while the uniqueness of a faction and new combination of skills is theorised as trash.

My money is on time and experience being all that is needed to invalidate the core hypothesis being hoisted in this OP.

Infinity is a game which is (in both a good and a bad way) very difficult to theorise about. Because so many variables compound the problem;

- Player skill level.
- Terrain
- Mission mix
- list composition

I do wonder if what gets interpreted as power sometimes might be better described as forgiveness. Eg. a spam list is likely more forgiving of mistakes or sloppy play than a more elite force with multi-purpose units. But a well played multi-purpose force might provide more consistent results.

Therefore when theorising, it is often done from a place of limited familiarity with a list, so the more common idea of "good" will be based on what allows a less familiar hand to achieve success sooner.

 

Yyyy Frontovicks HRL in Kazak link ?

 

IMO, yes it is to late after this click-bait headline.
Compared with the KHD question that ruined the topic completly.

 

Yeah, Vet Kazak should not be AROing. But not all of this camo will be jammed up the middle so you can sensor it so easily. It'll be deployed in a layered defences, and chances are you're not sensoring more than ~3 markers with that midfield sensor. Move them up some more and you'll start losing them.

Also, here's the thing. You don't know what's in my list. Any of the DZ camo marker might be something much more dangerous. Any of the Camo in my half of the table might be a mine. Or you might be manoeuvring around and its actually just Ambush Camo marker. Or it might actually be a Strelok that blasts you with the Shotgun.

While they don't have strong linked pieces to the level of USARF, what they do is Camo. So yeah, my list doesn't have Tankhunter, but when we start playing, how do you know that? You have to thread carefully around any Camo that can see farther. And sure, you'll spend a few Orders to Discover it... Only to realise it's just Ambush camo.

Or maybe it's not. Maybe it finally was the Tankhunter PA/ML and you got lucky!

 

Just a quick responce. But if i have a tag or.linked hi hmg are you gonna pull the trigger on dangerous aros to try and plug a fugazo rush?

If you shoot the group2 fugazi you stand to get plugged when thw big gun pokes out next order

It catch 22s camo threats like that. Thats how you get em

 

I'm not gonna plug them while they're rushing. You'll deploy sensors close to center, reveal a few camo markers. Any more movement forward and I'll plug them from positions which cannot be engaged at long range from your side of the map, or they'll have to advance into a mine. Details depend on terrain, but I'm fine with losing a couple of Skirmishers to weather a turn.

 

Nothing either of you are saying convinces me TAK is super super good. Is it maybe easier to play than OSS? Sure. TAK doesn't really make me shit the bed should I end up facing them across the table though.

 

I think tak lacks serious staying power

You strip their tokens and they dont have very good aro pieces. They have passavle in the tankhunter or in a linked kazak ML or a few other units.

But they dont have linked HI Mls or TO msrs or tr hmg equivalents. And that is why they are so vulnerable to sensor

Im not saying thwy are weak and they will punish those that cant mass reveal camo. But anyone can clear huge 16 diameter chunks of the table with a few sacraficial 8-8 mimetism flashbots.

 

TO MSRs and TR HMGs die quickly usually.

They do have linked HI, for cheap. Just because it's not full 2W doesn't mean it's any less strong. It's just not built for AROs. However, they have the advantage that you don't know what they are hiding for AROing, and this can force you to expend more orders trying to find out.

And no Sensor in OS/vanilla Aleph will reveal what they have in their DZ.

Besides, the whole point of TAK Reactive turn game isn't to kill your stuff, it is to preserve their hitting power until their Active turn. And then you die.

 

A tr hmg only dies if you stick it on a roof and expect it to fight from order one.

They are a lot harder to deal with covering a fire lane less than 32 and if they have a screening force in front of them preventing their getting attackes under 8.

And thats only if they dont go first. Once they have supportware up they are a lot harder to shift.

They arw a unit thag falls out of favour as the meta learns the game and how to deal with the badly deployed tr hmgs.
Well deployed hmgs however if you go back to using them offer as much or more firepower than degensive links do. And unlikeore aro pieces they are equally effective in active so make good back up attack pieces.

As to to msrs. The point is they can lick fights whenevr it suits them. Unlike camo which can and does get forced into revealing as you just admitted it can in the post before a to msr is a complete unknown. Amd when it does reveal its adding a massove nehative to hit.

Again you let the opponent engage then from order one then sure itll probably die. But thats just usiing reactive units poorly

 

The big thing I see when picking apart the TAK camo game is "how many Camo tokens do you have" and "where are they."

If everything in Nemo's sample list deploys as far forward as it wants too, it's easy to know what's what: 2 Camo Tokens in ZoC, probably with one in an obvious-af place, is a Spetsnaz with his obligatory Ambush Camo to try and draw Discover Orders. If they're both obvious, I'm okay taking the time to Discover, because that's probably a Spetsnaz I can kill for free. If one's prone, that's an obvious giveaway.

A Strelok might hang back, not using forward deployment to try and saturate the DZ a bit more, but that's still pretty obvious... 2 more Camo tokens is an easy giveaway. Even if you straddle the two zones, one in DZ and one Forward Deploying, you can often still spot the pair because of Zone of Control.

If you cluster all your Camo with overlapping Zones of Control, it means you're only covering/projecting power from one area of the table. This usually means there are blindspots that allow maneuvering.

This is much harder to do vs Vanilla Ariadna, where you can get some good cheap DZ staples like the Cateran, or a Hardcase that's been held back, which can be difficult to spot.

But contextually, an ARO choice like a Tankhunter Autocannon usually sticks out like a sore thumb because it's literally "the odd man out" in terms of counting up Camo Tokens, Zone of Control, etc. and figuring out what goes where. And the more you take advantage of things like Forward Deployment or Infiltrate, the more your Camo ends up falling into disctinct "buckets" of what they can possibly be. This erodes the shell game.

Not to mention DZs start getting really crowded once you have all those Antipode Camo tokens standing around, plus buckets of Line Kazaks or whatever else a TAK player wants. Since no smart TAK player wants to stand a real unit at a corner where a template splash could potentially take out all his buddies who are sharing his cover, this further restricts what can go where. Streloks won't just crowd the DZ, but will deploy far forward where their mines can provide protection, and their shotguns might have a chance of being relevant.

It's an intuitive process, but contextually, it's almost always possible to narrow an enemy Camo Token down to 1-2 possibly identities. That's usually plenty of information for forming a gameplan and putting it into action.

 

That being said, a savvy player can mess with that by going with an unusual deployment setups. Deploying a Strelok in a forward position, but Ambush Camo marker back in DZ, for example. Minelayers bring in even more complications.

But the bottom line is that it's not all doom and gloom. Neither TAK nor vanilla Ariadna are that scary. Mass Camo is strong, but can be beaten even without a dedicated list, and OSS has tools to do it, while maintaining list balance. I'm actually more concerned about the future iteration of Shasvastii, than I am about Ariadna.

 

What does mess up expectations a bit is Exclusion Zones and MI getting Forward Deployment, as any S2 Camo in the 4" Dead Zone could be a Scout, Strelok, Tankhunter, Ambush marker or Mine. But you can still make an educated guess most of the time.

 

and then you fork said Camo tokens with an 8 pt bot that moves 16 an order if it wants