I still think they wouldn't be worth their points. But since I don't play Yu Jing, they can take them and enjoy, and Aleph can maybe get something in exchange. (but not Liu Xing, because I suspect it's gonna cause enormous amounts of bad will, so even though I think it's good, it's a bit too impacting)
Tbh, i don't think they decided to demote the zencha solely to save cost, because a 2W zhencha wouldn't really be much more expensive to begin with (around 40pts if my maths are corrects, which is more than acceptable considering what you get). However I think people really underestimates how bloody insane they would be if that was the case, which is why i doubt we will see shock/bio immunity added later on. We should keep in mind that, initially, the daofeï was supposed to be in IA (according to its background), and for some reason they dropped it and made something else instead. I could totally understand that at, some point during the design process they realized IA needed a cheap infiltrated-camo specialist with high availibility, but making it an HI with 2 propers wounds would be a complete disaster for IA's internal balance, because the 2nd wound makes them self sufficient: If they can tank a mine, it means they can waltz around the board and just kill stuff and push buttons, they don't need to wait for something to come-up and clean the mines for them. They can win on their own. Everything else ends-up being a back-up plan in case the skirmishers fails. It's also probably the design idea behind dart: She is the ultimate huntress, she is supposed to be an operative capable of hunting on her own without any support. However, she is AVA1, and don't have specialist options, so she can't be everywhere, and she still needs the rest of the list to win the mission. As for the Liu Xing, as other already pointed out NWI + bio-immunity is actually better than being a true HI for an AD, and it's probably cheaper too, so yeah it's just a straight-up upgrade. I guess the "zhencha issue" is what opened the pandora box, and the Liu Xing just happily took advantage of it (though i, for one, would gladily accept giving that up and pay a few more points to make it a "true" HI just as a matter of principle, but i don't expect many to follow me on this one).
I find his comment about his own customers should "read my books so they learn some new words" much funnier, but in a "how can you be such a sad and condescending nerd" way
Try as I might to find a way to use then, it seems like Zhencha were just designed to be the Sectorial's worst unit. I really don't believe they'll see heavy usage in Vanilla because the White Banner stuff is just too good by comparison. From a game design perspective, it makes sense for a faction to have weak points, but my guess is the Camo Infiltrator mindset is too heavily ingrained into the game to build a Sectorial without one anymore, so they introduced a weak one. I always learn new words when I read the literary goldmine that is Gutier's work. After all, he makes half of them up!
Have you seen some of the great suggestions on this thread regarding the use? How does guilang perform better at deploying on inaccessible roofs to be protected from attacks? I think most analysis seems to ignore climbing plus, which is understandable given its a skill we've not had other than a single character. But the bias is evident when that assumption isnt acknowledged.
@Sedral I could perhaps be under-estimating how potent a 2W camo infiltrator might be but the daofei has been around for years and I don't really regard it as an uber over-powered piece. Are terrain skills like climbing plus really that impactful here? I think I understand what you're getting at regarding internal balance concerns, although I really doubt something like shock immunity would suddenly make the zencha over-powered. BS 12 alone makes it less of a rambo piece and more a scalpel of discretion. Immunity of some level would just remove much of the paralysis I have about it trying to get past enemy markers. If I need to bring up other models to clear out the opponent's mid-field then the chances are it'll be a link where they are bringing specialists up the board anyway. (Zuyongs have paramedics and FOs plus I think shang ji were spoiled to have 'wildcard' so we can quite safely presume a core link can handle most objective missions.) In which case the zencha's only real benefit is being able to climb about. That is potentially pretty valuable but it's a very hard to quantify type of value.
I will grant you that I may not be grasping the full value of Climbing Plus, I'm a newer player who prefers playing with very low order count. But it seems to me, thanks to making Climb a Short Skill, that on boards without terrain over 8 inches tall it would save maybe half an order per game. Guilang's better at deploying safely because MSV1 and mines on all profiles helps level the playing field against the opponents most likely to reach them, Camo Skirmishers, and the hacker profiles are better off with WIP 14 then 3 more BTS. I have read the thread EXTENSIVELY, I actually enjoy looking for new ways to play the game, I've even posted a few ideas on this thread and the Zhencha one. It simply seems that there are very few things that the Zhencha has that make it truly unique. In certain situations, it could be very strong, but that situational nature is considered a very bad trait on these forums. AHDs are useless against no-heavy lists, the Tactical bow is only useful on high-BS profiles from behind the enemy or with luck, and many more cases. Just contextualising, but the forum does seem to really hate it when there is a chance a skill could do nothing. On the topic of situational plays, what kind of board layout would be best for the Zhencha? Urban, difficult terrain that doesn't inflict visibility modifiers, and high buildings in midfield are my first guess, but I will admit I have relatively little experience with the Zhencha's loadout. There really are amazingly few Yu Jing Boarding Shotguns and SMGs in the CB catalogue.
Don't make the mistake of assuming that Climbing + is only good for getting on top of things. Whilst you can't use cover when hanging off the side of a building, it does allow you to get some unique firing positions vs other models, and potentially engage a key target without drawing ARO from other pieces that you would do if you just approached it horizontally.
Here's one thing: C+ often grant the user to catch enemy's back arc, by passing through or climbing off by all senses. Which gives an unexpected non-cover attack angle, something that can surprise even the most experienced players. Plus, we got a D.E.P. In optimal case(which is pretty reachable since Zhencha got Camo and C+), you can shoot an AP EXP ammo via normal roll of 75%. Not a bad thing, really.
Similar to super-jump, it can let you deploy on a building with no normal access to the roof for protection, then make an easy egress off of it to go do things. Do this all the time with my Rodok fireteam.
Climbing+ also means you don't drop camo when climbing. Deploying camo on roofs that don't have ladders have that additional cost of having to drop camo just to get down. Thats a whole order in itself without considering the risk this poses. It also means zhencha can climb up to models hiding on roofs without losing camo. Making rooftops less unassailable as often any access will be protected, and climbing invites unopposed AROs. BSG on specialist profiles are also well sought after due 8" being a common engagement range for skirmishers.
I think it's 1 point. They should just do it. Also drop Hackable because that doesn't adjust the price.
The main Advantage of C+ is the fact that allows you to climb and remain in marker state. Ergo, it's super cool to hunt down troops on rooftops. It's also good to deploy on roofs and get out of them without needing to give long detours (both of them good for a HI list). The unexpected attack angle trait is secondary
So, just got to playtest the zhencha and liu-xing yesterday. It was only one game and the board was a tad bit more open than I'm used to, so make of the experience what you will. Game was firefight, but I didn't make the list with that in mind so I had the liu-xing as a Multi-rifle specialist. My opponent had a sophotect and TR bot stuck on a rooftop nearby a danavas (pretty juicy specialist-kill target), so I had my hsien take out the TR bot through smoke, and dropped the liu xing on top of the sophotect with huge bonuses from the mission and my EVO bot. We house-ruled the dodge to be PH-3 since he was dropping in from behind and the damage as 13+shock, but the sophotect managed to dodge. Liu xing then perforated the sophotect with shock rounds before getting crit-gotcha'd, but during my opponent's turn he reset and sponged ~8 orders of my opponent attempting to gotcha him, then him sponging a decent number of armor saves before going NWI and, eventually, dead. Zhencha didn't do as much, but was the final turn hero who secured me the victory by blasting a final dakini, did the FO classified by making a WIP check in contact with a building in the enemy's DZ, somehow didn't get gotcha'd by the danavas, and ended in suppression behind cover while securing the enemy HVT. I'd have to say I'm a little disappointed the Liu-xing's explosion didn't get to be showcased, but if it did work I would've just had him turn around and blast the danavas after spending a single move skill had it killed the sophotect. I think I really like the liu-xing 'cause if your opponent really wants him dead, it's gonna take a few orders. If it was a tiger soldier, my opponent wouldn't have bothered attempting to hack him and he would've died to the first failed armor roll. The liu-xing seems to be a colossal pain in the ass to dig out, just like the fraacta 'cause of his 2W, relatively high armor, and good BS. It'd only be better if my opponent didn't have the hacker nearby and I had him in suppressive fire. Denying my opponent a coup de-grace or scanning classified by having no unconscious state is just a cherry on top of a really interesting profile, imo. The zhencha had a bad time since my opponent had a hacker nearby the buildling he needed to FO and, again, the board was a little open so his SMG was at a disadvantage most of the time. Him being hackable is definitely annoying, but I honestly prefer him as a last turn objective grabber to other skirmishers since he's a lot more durable and flexible with climbing plus. Not really an all-star unit, but I think he's still workable.
