There are two conflicting rulings out there on the interactions between dodge and explode. It is unclear which of these is the one we should play. First up, the interpretation that dodging successfully prevents a subsequent explode template from hurting you: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/31191-solved-exploding-in-active-turn-any-aro/ This means a change facing could also save you from an explosion and fits pretty well with the way dodge works versus other template attacks. This first ruling was marked solved, so I guess Palanka signed off as agreeing with it. Then the second ruling ... where it looks like a second reading of the rules reversed the first ruling. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/42763-dodge-plus-explode/#comment-808599 With that interpretation you'd have to have dodged out of the explode template area completely to avoid being hit. Simply passing the dodge roll would not help avoid the effects of explode and change facing could not help. However this interpretation hasn't been marked solved... so I don't know which of the rulings stands right now. Please could we pick one and mark the other invalid somehow? I thought a solved thread with an @ijw blessing was end of discussion until the other was pointed out to me.
Did you read those threads? The first one says that the unit has to stand there and take the blast, and the second one says... they have to stand there and take the blast. The answers in those threads, the first one marked correct and the second one where IJW revised his own answers in the first one, both say that when Explode happens due to taking damage, you can't dodge it.
A few things... 1. There are different times Explode goes off, shot to unconscious vs. collar triggered. Those different times work differently. And I won’t be at all surprised if the new version of Explode in the new book changes how Explode L1 works. 2. No, no one is going to go back in to the old forum to clarify things. We are, at this point, lucky that they didn’t just shut it off a few months ago.
Of course I read them. From the first one, verbatim: "It's going to be far too late to have any new AROs, but I believe anyone who successfully Dodged will avoid the effects, in the same way that reactive Dodging into a Mine's area can avoid the Mine's template." That is not what the second one says. The first thread goes on to various other examples, but the answer to dodge vs explode seemed clear and @ijw noted that his second ruling contradicted the first. @ijw apologies if this is wasting your time.
The only “Solved” interpretation is the older ruling. So if @ijw doesn’t want to address it again, the only option is to go with the only Solved ruling we have. If he isn’t up to the task, or doesn’t want to, we can hope that someone else who gives official answers comes along. Until then I don’t see why we would ignore the officially selected correct answer.
The solved ruling was in relation to a different user's answer, not IJW's as pointed out in the second thread by IJW himself. Icchan, who was contradicted by IJW, is the actual poster that was marked [Solved], not IJW. You guys are tunnel visioning on a name here instead of reading the actual thread.
@Triumph then you agree we don't have a "solved" ruling on this issue then. Wouldn't that be nice to have?
The first thread literally has the answer marked solved in it. You don't get to dodge the template when it's placed, if you're in the blast zone you eat the blast hit. IJW's answer in that thread was not marked solved and was incorrect, as he himself points out in the second thread.
@Triumph - This is the answer you think clears it up: “You can never get two ARO's for one activation and the explosion happens in the resolution phase so they have to stand there and take it. Even the troops thad had an opportunity to ARO but didn't have to stand there and take it, as per the ARO rules: if you're given an opportunity for an ARO but choose not, you've waived your right for ARO's for that activation. As far as I know, it's not possible to get a Kuang Shi within template range of an enemy troop and not grant them an ARO. Even with Sixth Sense skill they would have to ARO to your second short skill and not the explosion.” It doesn’t. It states that you don’t get to attempt a second ARO to the explosion, but does not clearly cover what happens if you make a successful dodge or change facing as your first ARO. Given that is followed up by ijw stating he thinks it works like a mine dodge, this isn’t a good clear ruling on the question I’ve asked. I don’t mind if dodge works against explode or not, i’d just like clear guidance so I know I’m playing it right.
Welcome to interpreting answers on the forums. You appear to be new at this. Edit: sorry, that came off as condescending. It's not intended that way. We (the community) struggle to get clear answers on interactions that no-one actually knows how to play, so pushing for additional clarity on a settled question is a waste of energy. The best option is to have it collected into a set of questions for review down the track (hopefully in the much promised 'massive FAQ' or an N3.X rewrite of the rules). So: yes a really clear answer would be ideal, but this is a low priority question. Mainly because applying the basic Order Expenditure Sequence in combination with the previous thread sufficiently answers it. Kuang Shi Active: 1. Activation: The Active Player activates [a Kuang Shi.] 2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper. 3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement 4. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. 5. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. 6. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available, and declare those. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. 7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls. 8. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls. 9. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects. [Explode happens during this step (at the end of the Order)*, after the effects of the Dodge are applied.] Compare Dodging into the Trigger Area of a Mine. The Mine Triigers during Step 4 or 6, before the effects of Dodge are applied. * The wording for Guts "If a troop survives an Attack, at the end of the Order it must make a Normal WIP Roll." makes it clear that "at the end of the order" should read as "during the Conclusion of the order". Personally I'd prefer to see that wording. @ijw something for consideration? Edit2: that raises a new question though, does Explode happen before, after or before-and-after Guts? I think the answer will be that the sequence implemented during Conclusion is: 9.A. Explode L1 9.B. Guts 9.C. Check coherency It's the cleanest to implement and fits with the understanding of it at the moment.
Yes it does clear it up. I have highlighted the part of the sentence that causes the rule to function that way. By the time the template is placed all dodges have already been resolved from any possible AROs. If the troopers are still in this position at this point in time they eat the template, and they can't have a second ARO during the resolution of whatever the Kuang Shi did the first time.
@inane.imp Explode should happen at the end of 8. Effects since Explode triggers when the trooper enters Unconscious - something that happens during Effects and before Guts Rolls. However, sequentially it's still going to be impossible to have carry-over effects of a Dodge since that has already been applied. Should also note that I think during the time of some of the answers there were also a strange timing regarding dodging and mine triggering from a forum answer lingering and creating some confusion later, now that we're missing context.
Explode triggers 'at the end of the order' after it went Unconscious. But yeah, last step of Effects or first of Conclusion is functionally irrelevant. I just prefer Conclusion because everything else that happens 'at the end of the order' happens during Conclusion.* Either way: after Dodge, before Guts. * I also would prefer it if CB stopped using "at the end of the order" and instead went "during Conclusion before / after resolving Guts". The Order Expenditure Sequence is a really useful part of the rules, it's just not referenced often enough by other rules.
Just for sake of completion for anyone who'd argue that "at end of order" means at the every end of the order: Transmutation. New or old profiles while Gutsing? Overflowing W/STR are additionally also described as being applied "at the end of the order" Expel. Does the TAG get to do a Guts Roll before the pilot is ejected? Lean Out. Do you make the Guts Roll from the position where it is standing in mid air? ARM/BTS rolls. These are actually described as happening "at the end of the order". There's a few things which go to extra length, though, such as Warning which states "at the end of the order, in the Conclusion, after ARM/BTS rolls" or lifts that specifically calls out "after Guts Rolls"
Hmmm. There's grounds to argue that "at the end of the order" could mean either during the Effects or Conclusion step. Where are ARM/BTS described as happening at the end of the order? I couldn't find it in the obvious places in the wiki. All the rest *can* be handled during Conclusion either before or after Guts, although some should admittedly be handled in Effects. I think universally it would be better to describe it that way (during [step], before/after [key elements of step],).
I did a search in the rules PDF. The wiki has a tendency to chop up stuff which makes it harder to find sometimes. Specifically the one about ARM/BTS is in the low-level intro section, though, if memory serves. At end of order seems to be a catch-all for "at some point after all skill declarations" if it was to be formalized.
If we're all in agreement with @Triumph, let's try and sum up clearly without waffling on about multiple AROs: The template negation effect of a successful dodge roll is no longer in play when explode L1 triggers.
