So this one came up tonight, and we weren't sure how to play it. Engineer moves into BtB with a REM in 2nd level unconscious. Draws an ARO from a missile launcher, which shoots. Engineer declares a Engineer skill to repair the remote. Both the ARO and the Engineer succeed (as normal rolls). The REM is in the blast template, and fails some armor saves. So what happens? Does the Remote die, or does it go to 1 STR because everything happens at the same time (takes the damage and heals)? Is there a clear timing on how damage is resolved for this?
Everything happens at once, so depending on how many ARM rolls the REM fails it could remain unconcious or end in the dead state. If it fails one ARM roll and the Engineer roll succeeds, the REM gains 1 STR and loses 1 STR for an overall no change.
Depends on hiw much damage the attack does, but you can just sum it all together - so the Engineer heals it of 1 STR, and then it takes 1 more, so it's back unconscious.
If this was a Dr and wounds I'd certainly agree with that. Except an Engineer can repair up to 2 STR when it gets the REM out of the UNC state. So this is potentially valid: an UNC-1 REM takes a wound and goes UNC-2, Engineer repairs the UNC state REM goes back to 1 STR. Or, in this specific example, running it in reverse: Engineer Repairs, REM goes to STR1 takes a STR and ends at UNC-1. Basically: sum the damage with 2 STR being repaired. So 2 STR damage would result in no change, 1 STR damage would result in going up a level (ie UNC-2 > UNC-1) and 3 STR damage would result in going down a level (ie UNC-2 > Dead)
This is exactly my question, and pretty much my interpretation. My read of it is that it only invokes if the REM hits UNC -2. The relevant section: So if I have a multi structure REM or remote presence trooper, and it only takes enough damage to get down to UNC-1, then my engineer would only heal 1, but if it would drop to UNC-2, then it heals 2 seems like one read of it. But, the language here says something a bit different. It states that if you are at either level of UNC, you revert to STR1. This _might_ be read as "if it was unconscious at any point, a successful engineering roll puts it to STR1." Which would negate any excess damage. Or, it could mean you only heal one point if you start at UNC-1, but 2 if you start at UNC-2.
Well, zero structure not wounds, but sure. Even so, the issue I'm having is whether the "revert" clause in the Remote Presence text means "heal up to", or actually means what it says: revert. If it does mean revert, then I think it's a completely legitimate reading that the extra wounds from the template are cancelled by the logic that even if you have -5 damage worth of structure wounds sitting there to be applied, and it resolves simultaneously with a "revert to STR1" clause. In some ways, the revert to STR1 reading above (in addition to being consistent with the rules text) is is less complicated than the UNC-1/UNC-2 healing one & two respectively, similar to what @inane.imp said above. Because damage and engineer resolves simultaneously, then this example strikes me as an unintuitive result of treating the Engineer skill as healing a given number of points: UNC-1 REM takes 2 wounds from the blast template. Does it goto UNC-2 (Heal +1, subtract 2 to UNC-2) or does it go to UNC-1 (heal +2, subtract 2 to UNC-1)? If the former, then you have the same result for healing an UNC-2 REM that takes two damage, which strikes me as odd (the worse-off bot is no worse off, while the better off bot ends down an UNC level), but it might be right. I haven't gotten into the fire damage thing and how that resolves timing-wise (will save that for later).
What I'm saying is 'always count Engineer as repairing +2 in situations where the REM takes damage simultaneously to the successful Engineering attempt, then sum that with the damage; results of >0 is 1 STR, 0 is Unc-1, -1 is Unc-2, <-1 is Dead'. Doesn't matter how you do the order of operations it'll always give the same answer. More heavily damaged REMs are worse off than less heavily damaged REMs. It's simple to execute in practice. It mirrors how we do it for Drs (with a simple change to account for Unc-2).
I like really the solution @inane.imp, but I don't know if that is correct RAW. My issue is that an UNC-1 unit doesn't ever reach UNC-2 during resolution, so should it really get the +2 STR? My other issue is that while this makes engineer resolve like doctor, the effect in question is not from those skills, it is from remote presence. I didn't find an equivalent language for an interaction with the doctor skill so far. For instance, NWI gets "cancelled" and returns to normal by healing (with the normal healing properties as defined in doctor), but doesn't revert. The engineer skill uses "regain" one point as doctor uses "heal," so revert seems like it is written as a unique replacement effect of the remote presence skill when engineer is invoked on a trooper with the skill.
It's not correct RAW. RAW I go 'I apply the effects in the order of operations most beneficial to me' and you go 'no you should apply the effects in the order of operations most beneficial to me' and then we call over the TO because the rules don't deal with this situation. It does, however, approximate RAW and gives consistent results. The other option that does that is "the [X] player decides on the order of operations in which to apply the effects." Where X is one of the active player, the player whose trooper took the damage or the player whose trooper dealt the damage. I'm also perfectly okay with that answer so long as it's consistenly applied. There is no order of operations for applying damage in the rules and it hasn't been ruled on to my knowledge. The 'just sum it' is the consensus answer for Drs.
Thanks @inane.imp, yet again you state what I am getting at better than I did. I like your solution(s) here, and agree these are the available options with no obvious RAW resolution. Favoring "treat it like Engineer repairs two if a unit takes damage during the Engineer attempt on a Remote Presence unit" is a fine rewrite, and the calculation above provides some consistency using your calculation as long as the remote presence unit starts the turn in an UNC level. Of the alternatives you mention, we have other examples in the rules that favor the active player determining outcomes (thinking of things like Engage positioning, everyone's 'favorite' rule for consistent outcomes) so I could see that being an equally 'consistent' outcome here. But if the goal is to avoid bringing over the TO (a good goal), I think there's an addendum to your calculation I'd offer to address healing RP TAGs and other RP units with multiple STR. To gain consistency, I think we would have to include the units starting STR, with UNC-1 and UNC-2 effectively parsing to STR0 and STR-1 in your calculation above. Original recipe: Karakuri with 1 STR Takes 2 Damage (- 2 Wounds + 2 Engineer Heal = 0, which your calculator says is UNC-1) Karakuri with UNC-1 Takes 2 Damage (- 2 Wounds + 2 Engineer Heal = 0, which is also UNC-1) vs. Extra Crispy: Karakuri with 1 STR Takes 2 Damage (1 STR -2 +2 = 1 STR) Karakuri with UNC-1 Takes 2 Damage (0 STR -2 +2 = 0 STR/UNC-1) Karakuri with UNC-2 Takes 2 Damage (-1 STR -2 +2 = -1 STR/UNC-2) I suspect that's what you intended when you laid out the original calculation, so I'm just clarifying in case that's the direction we're going. This fix of course may not be what you intended, because it has some weird cases like this: Karakuri with 1 STR Takes 1 Damage (1 STR -1 +2 = 2 STR) Karakuri with UNC-1 Takes 1 Damage (0 STR -1 +2 = 1 STR) Karakuri with UNC-2 Takes 1 Damage (-1 STR -1 +2 = 0 STR/UNC-1) Where I get the full +2 heal benefit for my 1 STR unit... which seems not intended, but it is consistent. Of course, then you have to separate this from the "revert to 1STR" clause when you _don't_ take damage, etc.
Determine the positive by checking the current status of the REM at the time of the engineer skill declaration. So +1 if at Unc 1, +2 if at Unc 2, apply damage as normal and net the result.
How do you work a repairing a STR1 REM that takes 2W? Does it end at STR1 or Unc-1? Because we're basically talking value judgements here. I'm preferencing the Engineer over the AROing unit, because the Engineer is expending resources and is taking a hit to the face on Normal rolls. So it's likely this will only be attempted once.
What state is it in when you declare engineer? That determines how much you can repair with the order.
Didn't we already have similar problem with Prothein and failing an ARM against a shock ammo (you at the same time became shock-immune AND fail shock ARM roll). Wasnt it said that in such case active player decides what happens first ?
They cannot "just cancel out". If Umbra gains wound first, then suffer a wound net result is 1/2W Umbra. If it goes the other way the result is that the Umbra is removed from game table. I'm not sure if the resultion was "active player decides" but something like that resonate in my head (mind its very possible I'm terribly wrong!)
