@ijw It's not that Morats don't have tools for dealing with Camo, it's that doing so is typically order-intensive, and thus not having it yourself to even the score is a significant drawback.
Please note that I was specifically referring to MAF vs Camouflage, not the overall power level of the Sectorial. And I wasn't trying to dismiss or marginalise feedback, I think the idea that Sensor and Sniffers are the way to deal with Camo and board control is to misunderstand the game, and in itself is to dismiss how powerful the soft counters of the game are - and MAF has more (both in quantity and variety) of those soft counters than most other forces.
There were Morats on few of 2-day events. Just none did any good score to be remembered. @gaki as most efficient way to deal with camo. There is this 1 point more expensive guy who can do intuitive attack on camo without LoF, just in ZoC on 15... Just saying;) And I still would point out antipodes, making sensor on 2/3 of table;)
This is one point I can't agree with more. MAF has Average Willpower and only one Lieutenant with Strategos. This means that i's basically 50/50 if we go first, and if we don't, it's going to be an uphill battle. By now I know I have to choose go first when I win the FTF roll because if I don't go first I might as well have surrendered the game already (Hyperbole warning). I would like to see more reactive options for MAF, I really would. And in fact this update might have given us just that, but I'll wait until the actual book comes out and I get a few games to say what I think about it. Okay, I just had a little idea: what if MAF is the reverse Tohaa? To play against tohaa, you have to consider tactics that usually aren't that common. You have to consider that they can no sell your AROs at least once, and that they can block even your visors with smoke. That forces you to think of new ways. To consider options like CC to tie their heavy hitters, or consider hitting them with something even harder to punch through their added resistances. Basically, Tohaa "break"the game by forcing the players to think differently. With MAF, I often find myself in a similar situation, but instead of approaching different strategies to fight them, I think of different strategies to use them. I don't have reliable midfield control if I don't start the game, so I must go first. If I must go first, then I need to focus on hard hitting attack pieces and feeding them orders. I don't have a super efficient way of dealing with camo, so I need more orders to do so. This shifts the thought a little, and I see people approaching MAF like they approach ISS. It's a thought experience, but I do believe we could improve by trying to think out of the box. And I know, there's an irony that the army with the least amount of tricks is the one that forces you to think outside the box the most.
Hospitaller change makes sens IF it will turn out that MO cannot take <34 pts Lt. (as Fusiliers are gone) I'm not saying changes to MO are bad (boy they seem amazing), but actually MO lost it's access to Fusiliers who were really widely used to perform duties of Lt and shell Lt and/or cheapest unlocker for drones and Fairy Dust. Basicly MO seems to be now restricted on the amount of orders it can field (15-16 order list of MO are probably gone).
The game already heavily promotes starting the first turn. Even if Morats start the game they do not have any good and reliable way to go through enemy's midfield and deal enough damage to either opponent's order pool or vital units. And how Morats are supposed to play like ISS while the cheapest cheerleader costs 14 apart of 2 Ikadrons for 9 and one Rdrone for 8. Using gakis core is really poor usage of a core link - instead of fielding it, it's better to just play vanilla CA. Also, all those genius ideas of revealing camos by an intuitive attack of daturazis can't be executed in reality. It takes way to many orders to do it. ISS has infiltrating sniffers on often 20 orders, Morats have to go on foot from their deployment and risk losing a trooper in a low chance attempt to reveal enemy unit if of course long-range ARO won't kill your model before. It is a really shitty way of balancing thegame, when we are only looking at profiles in a complete vacuum and without any context. Hospitaliers, apart a doctor profile are rarely used in vanila but are often taken in MO. In MO that frenzy discount is way too high since linkability. Also what a tragedy to lose 3 cheerleaders for 10pts, while MO has Joan with inspired leadership that gives 2 extra orders for 8pts. Most of competitive MO lists where 1 CG anyways. Morats for example, on 1 CG looks like really poorer cousins of MO, without TO shenanigans and way poorer HI pain train.
You do realize we are speaking from experience and understand that yes, it is order intensive to use intuitive attack and/or discover+shoot with footslogging miniatures, right? This isn't just speculation, it's tactics that can, and have been used. A hungries link is stupidly powerful once the opponent loses their long range attack/ARO pieces. We're talking 50 points for a link that packs decent CC, good Shooting (at effective BS 14+range) and lots and lots of templates if you're using the vulkan shotgun oznat. There's nothing saying a hungries link has to stay back on your deployment zone and never leave it. Morat Aggression Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 SOGARAT Lieutenant AP HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 56) ZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22) MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) RODOK Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) RODOK Hacker (EI Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25) RODOK Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28) RODOK HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27) RODOK Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) GROUP 2 2 4 5 Bit Hacker (UPGRADE: Expel) Submachine Gun + Pitcher, Deployable Repeater + KISS! / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) KISS! Adhesive Launcher / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) OZNAT Vulkan Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 20) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army This list, for example, can pretty much afford to run the hungries forward and let them blow up on any mines on the first turn, or even force the enemy to blow their camo/surprise shots if they get afraid of the bugs running into cc with the (usually poor at cc) midfield skirmishers. And it still has a full, competent core you can reform after the bugs die and go on hunting stuff with a +3 to your discover+shoot rolls. It is nowhere as good as if we had an infiltrating sensor, or an impetuous, smoke throwing sensor. But it is doable. I'm not saying that we wouldn't be benefited by an infiltrating sensor or an impetuous, smoke throwing senor, or that I wouldn't use those tools if we had them. What I am saying is that it's unfair to dismiss tactics based on personal experience and opinion. What happened to the old "It's not your list, it's you" maxim? I know it's not a perfect statement, but I do feel like we need to evaluate our tactics and the way we use our armies more than complain that we didn't get the toys we wanted.
Because then you have avarage cost of order ~20 pts and not 10. Plus Joan could not join Hospitaller+Mag link (as it was most popular/best link in MO). Joan is good when you want LI list.
The ideal scenario, of course, is to get both the first turn and the last turn, by forcing your opponent to put you into retreat at the bottom of turn two.
Agreed - I don't feel we have the weight of orders to achieve Intuitive attacks and the like with any efficiency. It feels like the only reliable way to anti camo is running 5-man Yaos or relying on your opponent Some Missions lend themselves to going second, whereas some Factions and Playstyles lend themselves to going first. Varuna, for example, looks to be made of ARO pieces, cheap troops to confidently play 2 combat groups and cheap camo troops to drain orders - ergo, it suits going second. Vs, say, Avatar lists that are Limited Insertion and will go first every day of the week to maximise damage output on their enemy before taking a hit to their order pool.
Hang on, don't you specifically avoid playing Gaki links and other order-efficient elements in MAF? Unless I'm confusing you with someone else, I remember you talking on the combined army FB group about how you don't like playing the non-Morat models in MAF, which means you'll be operating from a different order pool base to what's theoretically possible otherwise. If I am thinking of someone else, mea culpa :)
Well, to be fair, the combat missions favour first turn and the zone/switch missions favour second turn. That's ITS. But no matter the mission, Morats as they are now have even fewer viable builds than old MO.
So every list must have Oznat/Hungries in order to function? That is supposed to be balanced and allowing for a variety of builds? Seems like you're just further reinforcing the problem with MAF by insisting they must rely on that link... I'm also not sure what other "order efficient elements" in MAF you're referring to in the above.
Chiefly R-Drones and Ikadrons, as well as the Q-Drone being our most cost effective shooter and the M-Drone being our most cost effective specialist.
Joan w/ Multi rifle (+1 SWC, 49pts) and SOF: regular Warcor + 2 merc warcors - 3x 4 Yuan Yuan (also smoke for the Friar) - 8x 2 Bashi Bazouk - 12x 1 Tech Bee -5x 49 + 9 + 32 + 24 + 5 = 89pts for 1 free Coordinated order/turn, 11 regular orders & 4 Extremely Impetuous orders. Soooo... MO only lost the "I deploy 2 fusiliers, now who's the Lt? A-ha! It was Joan all along!" Alpha Strike can be VERY powerful to limit the enemy's reactions/stuff. On killy missions, it's nearly the defining factor. On the other hand, popping 1-2 troops on the last turn and grabbing an Objective can totally change the game's outcome. On the third counter-argument, different armies can favour going first (greeks) or second (I usually don't care with Vanilla Aleph, for example). So yeah, both statements can be true. Implying otherwise means a "one size fits all" mentality :p I might have missed that... She's always been a core member of a 3-4 Hosp links (de Fersen being the other one)...
