Ariadna probably would really like the Zencha. Hackable for BTS is the norm for Ariadna HI. It would also make a good bleeding edge Ariadna design without 2 wounds but has a bit better than 1.
I wonder in which world Ariadna out of all the factions would like to get the Zencha when they are absolutely swamped on uber mid table skirmishers
1. Probably by dropping the dual Breaker Pistols down to a single, shave a point of BS, double-check the cost of CC (since apparently CB did that with the MO!). 2. Fairy dust protects against AHDs. KHDs ignore it, and all the hackers in the IA are AHDs! 3. Depends on points, but yes. Since Haidaos haven't been spoiled yet, I can't comment. 4. Still doesn't really make Shang Ji worth taking. Yeah, NO. I was expecting something a little less than a Daofei. Zuyong stats, Limited Camo+Mimetism, FD2. Roughly 10pts more than a Zuyong. Still spendy, but not 50-60pts. Exactly. I dunno, I'm not holding my breath.
Whoops, my bad! You're right, they're both PH12. Which is still stupid, considering one is in powered armour... Meh, I'm not sure PH13 would be broken, but I think the break point depends on what exactly Explode LX does. *shrug*
A Zuyong with Limited Camo, Mimetism and FDL2 is asking for something incredibly stripped down and efficient and probably slightly more expensive than the Zhencha regardless. You're basically saying you want a HI camo infiltrator that's about as efficient as it is possible for such a profile to be, and saying that something less efficient than this is a disappointment. That's just not reasonable. I could have expected Hyperdynamics and Dogged Pulzar equipped warbands for Tunguska, that'd fill their main tactical gap perfectly (defensive anti-warband speedbumb troop) but it'd be unreasonable. The Zhencha is excellent at objectives and classifieds, a good close range shooter, very mobile, and inexpensive given that it is a camo infiltration HI. Something which there are two of in the game, filling different cost points, and YJ have both!
Honestly, the Zhencha needs just one small nudge until it gets to the point where I would love it to bits. Which is Bio Immunity. That'd be really awesome to see in all honesty. But otherwise... it's a bit less flexible than I expected ( Granted, what I expect was a full suite of Skirmisher profiles... so that was a big expectation, I admit. ), but... even in it's current state, I'd say I will most likely prefer it to the Guilang for objective accomplishment roles. Pressing buttons and whatnot. If I want something defensive or with some extra support gizmos on the side... I'll probably stick to the the Guilang still ( Though as dedicated Minelayers, as in units that run about laying mines, not the skill itself in particular... I'd say it's a 50/50 pick for me. Which translates to ''I pick dude in power armor. Because I think power armor is cool.'' ). Climbing Plus is a most pleasant surprise though. All the possible roles manifested as HI are belong to us.
Yeah, me neither, but I honestly don't think it's a particularly high bar - just that CB doesn't seem to want to reach high enough to get YJ over it. That would've been a cool unit. Limited Camo/Mimetism would be good for keeping the cost down; FD2 too, as it's not quite as good as Infiltration, and definitely doesn't have the same flexibility (ie, the capacity to go over the halfway line). I mean, is it actually unreasonable? Is it actually that efficient? It's losing out on several key points (ie, full deployment flexibility and full Marker protection). A Zuyong with those loadouts is solid, but hardly breaking the bank (or balance). I don't mean this to be a personal attack (it may come across as such, but I don't intend for it to be so) - but your opinions seem to centre on YJ not having top tier units/profiles. You seem to be against something that is optimised - why? There are many examples of good, optimised units/profiles that aren't a terrible blight on the game; why shouldn't YJ have some?* *That's not to say that we have none (Su-Jian and Cranes spring to mind as good YJ examples) just that there's no particularly good reason to avoid gaining new ones. Excellent at objectives/classifieds? I guess so, although they're pretty fragile, for what is supposedly an HI. Good close range shooter? Eh, I wouldn't say that, to be honest. They're worse than a Zuyong/Daofei - hell, they're barely any better than a Guilang (and that depends on the enemy combatant; MSV1 vs NWI, that's probably in the favour of NWI more often than not, but against any kind of Shock or Mod skill/equipment the Guilang is probably going to be more effective, especially considering they're better equipped for medium range fighting). Very mobile? Yeah, they're pretty good for that, especially with the currently known IA units. Inexpensive? Hm. This I don't agree on. They're fairly pricey for a midfield Skirmisher-alike. Considering that midfield is littered with mines and similarly equipped units, they're going to be facing Shock quite often and while they're reasonably tough, they're paying quite a lot for the tools they do have, and especially for those that have a good chance of being completely cancelled out by Shock/Viral. YJ having both Camo/Infiltration "HI" is pretty cool. It's nice to have something that hasn't been handed out to others yet.
I guess it would make more sense to replace HI with Power Infantry, so they are the ones that are hackable, putting humanoid remotes that can dodge in here is fine. All other non Hackable units like the Adriana HI can be either MI, WBs (Wulvers, Eudoros) or Whatever (Tariq). But yes the categories are totally of, maybe CB should just scratch it all and give restrictions and treads like Hackable to the individual troop profiles instead.
If thats how it plays out, the Zencha definitely ends up in a better place... a forward-deployed KHD with some defensive equipment to issue a challenge... move your hackers to get the camo you know are hackable, the KHD is there to threaten. Move some dudes to eliminate the Hulang, and get stuck in an SMG/DEP crossfire. If its a traditional 2W HI or 1W+NWI HI-lite with shock immunity, it can also threaten enemy shock weapons moving forward to get the Zencha. Throw in some sort of opposite weakness to the Zencha (definitely no SMG, maybe its got some mid-range weapons instead of short range?) you get two units who arent unbeatable but who mesh very well to cover each other's weak points. Of course that's wishlisting, and I think part of what drives some criticisms in this thread is that (particularly after Uprising) we on this forum had to fill the hole left from losing JSA without getting much solid Invincibles information, and so went pretty deep into trying to fix existing Invincibles and speculate on the rumoured ones. And a lot of people had a lot of great ideas, they got examined and discussed and refined, we did good work! But we weren't working for CB, they were doing (or more likely had already done) that same work, their perspectives and requirements were different. We went into this with expectations from our discussions, visions of how units would slot in, and we're probably going to be disappointed in many cases because CB designed units to do things that are different from what we thought they should do. Is CB's take better? Maybe, maybe not, probably a mix of the two on a case-by-case basis... but theirs is what we get, for better or for worse. In conclusion, if NCO Tai Sheng isnt Mulan I will be personally offended ^_^.
The other point is that YJ lost quite a few highly-optimized profiles during the Uprising. Domaru and Haramaki/Tanko were beastly midfielders, able to eat most other WB or SK for breakfast. Oniwaban was Death Incarnate to TAGs and HI. All to 'open up design space'. And we get a near-clone of a Tiger for a 'HI' drop troop (plus lost the Tiger). We got a model less than a Daofei (OK, I admit I was expecting that), and it's not even shock-immune. I will give the new stuff a try, but so far I'm not really seeing how it works.
As far as I can make out, the only shock weapons that could threaten the camo marker are mines, and the special Ariadnan missile launcher, speculatively fired on a convenient target. So, the challenge is avoiding minefields, on a model that can scale buildings in the marker state. Not an unsolvable conundrum, and if my opponent ie spending orders or points to seed a massive minefield, maybe my other HI won't mind that so much. When not a marker, the Zencha suffers much more, that is true, and it is more of a gamble in a firefight; although would you send reconnaissance units to tackle enemies dug in, if you have a HMRC handy? I was a little skeptical about how IA would fulfill classifieds or complex objectives, and the Zencha answers that, in part. Likewise the shooting star answers questions on how IA might set early-game tempo (rather than grinding through to the final turn. And, perhaps is why CB revealed that, rather than another big hitter. Works for me, not for all.
That Zuyong would be cheaper than the Zhencha (and for good reason considering no reusable marker state). It'd be a slight shift going from an elite operative pretending to be HI to a HI operative pretending to be elite.
The cost of putting these camo and infiltration skills and skills like them onto a HI chassis is higher than putting them on a LI chassis. The cost of a Zero minus the cost of an Alguacile is not what you need to put on the cost of a Zuyong to get a hypothetical camo infiltrator Zuyongalike. You can tell that from the Daofei.
Seriously this is what happens when everyone starts looking at the game from the pov of trying to micro analyse stat and skill costings rather than actually dealing with the troops they have and creating tactics with holistic armies. The worst trait of this forum is how much it is obsessed with breaking down that costing. It is a fundamentally fruitless way to look at the game. It becomes about what you wish you could have based on a hypothetical idea of the points formula in your head rather than assessing the troops in front of you.
Hogswash. You're the one obsessing with points cost. Most people disappointed in the Zhencha are disappointed because it doesn't conform to what they have been lead to believe a HI to be and that it's a watered down profile of what we already have. It's impossible not to meet your arguments of "something else would cost more" without also analysing points cost.
I think that's the real kicker behind the negativity about these profiles: they aren't exactly inspired, they're predominantly very similar to units we already have with some pretty minor differences. There's not a huge array of midfield Shock, that's fair, it is predominantly AP Mines it seems, but there are a few other things I've found with a quick scan through Army: (Looking specifically for Shock Ammo and FD1/2/Infiltration) Marksmanship L1 (Ariadnan Scouts; PanO Locust MM Rifle profile) Various (non-MULTI) Sniper Rifles (Ariadna, Haqq) Many Knives (SAS, Haqq, etc) Nomad Hecklers (FD1 and Red Fury) Krakot Renegade (SMGs, Chest Mine, Red Fury, Shock CCW/Knife) Proxy Mk5 (SMGs, E/M Grenades) Not necessarily loads (predominantly Mines, as you say), but this is a fairly narrow look at things. The midfield is dangerous not just because of enemy midfield units, but also because that's where frontline units are pushing too, and there are plenty of Shock/Viral weapons that they can pack (such as the Red Fury, or simply SMGs). I don't know if it will always be a big worry, but it's certainly a factor.
