Hello, this situation came up in a game I had earlier this week and i'd like to clarify this: In the above example we have 3 actors, Joan of Arc, a TO Camo Crocman and an enemy sniper. Joan spends her LT order to perform a co-ordinated order with the croc man. For the first short skill the croc man moves across the gap allowing the sniper to draw LoF. Joan performs idle. The sniper declares to delay ARO. The second short skill sees Joan move across the gap allowing the Sniper to draw LoF to her. QUESTION: Can the sniper shoot Joan as its delayed ARO? Thank you.
See the final example: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/...d_Order_example:_Coordinating_Marker_troopers If the reactive trooper delays, they do so against a specific marker.
Except in that example all 3 figures were in position to cause an ARO on the first skill. That's not the case in Superfluid's example. In this case there are 4 relevant rules I can find: A) p.31 order expenditure sequence (4) if the trooper could declare an ARO and didn't then the chance is lost B) p.31 order expenditure sequence (6) would allow ARO on Joan if no previous ARO used C) p.70 AROs against CH Markers state "Bear in mind that when reacting to a CH: Camouflage or CH:TO Camouflage Marker, you may delay your ARO declaration until after the Marker declares its second Short Skill." D) p.70 AROs against CH Markers state "However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO." So taking points A, B and C into account there is no doubt that if the Crocman were on the table then he'd provide an ARO opportunity on the first skill meaning that the ARO must be declared at step 4 in the order expenditure sequence. There is then no ARO to be taken at step 6. As a CH Marker no ARO has been declared at step 4 because the player has chosen to "delay your ARO declaration". In this case step 4 has not happened and so an ARO opportunity would be possible at step 6 as new AROs are available (Joan is now visible) and the opportunity for ARO has not been lost. The confusion arises from point D. This line is written with specific reference to the Marker and with the implication that it is the only trigger. There is no doubt that it is not possible to take a step 6 ARO against the Marker unless it reveals itself as per point D. But does it preclude an ARO against a second target at step 6. Also, if no ARO is declared at step 4 where is it stated that they delay against a specific Marker and are locked to that Marker?
Welcome to the forum! It doesn't make much difference that all three troopers/markers were visible in the example. As per A, C and D, the reactive trooper has three choices in the OP's scenario: Declare an ARO against one of the markers (limited to the usual AROs against markers, such as Dodge or Discover), Declare that they are delaying their ARO*, against a specific marker, Declare no ARO at all, losing their chance to ARO against any second Skill of the Order. 'New' AROs are only triggered by the second Short Skill of an Order if there was no chance to ARO at all to the first Short Skill. *If you have a look at the first FAQ entry on the Camouflage page of the wiki (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflage_and_Hiding_(CH)#FAQ), you have to announce that you're delaying your ARO.
This seems fairly analogous to the "stealth-unit-doesn't-use-stealth-to-force-a-ZoC-ARO-before-running-into-their-base-from-the-front-so-as-not-to-get-shot-in-the-face" trick. Considering the order in question effectively only moved both units a single MOV value, it doesn't seem that overpowered. Though, I guess you could engineer a situation where both get free move-moves, but it would be tough.
Yeah, it's a good trick to know. It's nice to mess with nasty aro snipers If you have a need to get one or more people across gaps or to an objective point in the open where a cautious move might fail.
Cheers for the swift response but I'm still not sure on one particular bit. Where is the rule that you need to declare the delay against a specific marker? All I could see was item C) on my list stating that you can delay declaration and as declaration is the point at which you pick targets then from my understanding there is no target for the "delay"
It's in the Coordinated Orders rules: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coord...d_Order_example:_Coordinating_Marker_troopers
So the only mention of delay in that example (there are no rules covering it in that link - important distinction) is the following: "The Morat TAG can only declare its ARO against one of the three looming PanOceanian troopers, and chooses to react to one of the TO Camouflage Markers. Since he is reacting to a TO Camouflage Marker, the Raicho may delay its ARO, so it waits until the PanOceanian player declares the second Short Skill of her Order to see if the chosen TO Marker reveals itself before declaring ARO." So, breaking that down... "The Morat TAG can only declare its ARO against one of the three looming PanOceanian troopers, and chooses to react to one of the TO Camouflage Markers." - Yep, no problem here. Three things happen, choose one. "Since he is reacting to a TO Camouflage Marker, the Raicho may delay its ARO" - Reacting to an ARO opportunity is not choosing a target for an ARO as that is done in ARO declaration which, as per the rules, is precisely the thing that is being delayed. "so it waits until the PanOceanian player declares the second Short Skill of her Order" - Yep, no need to declare ARO yet. "to see if the chosen TO Marker reveals itself before declaring ARO" - This merely says that if the TO Marker revealed itself then it could be chosen as the target of the ARO (as per the normal you count as visible for the whole action if you reveal on the second order). Nothing here obligating targeting the TO Marker though.
I dunno, that seems like a pretty strained reading of that last sentence and reading it that way also makes the choice of language coming before it not make a whole lot of sense. If it were the case that you could react to any of the troops, even after choosing "to react to one of the TO... markers", then what was the point of even spelling out the choice in the first place?
"However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO." http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflage_and_Hiding_(CH)#AROs_against_CH_Markers So as soon as you declare delay, you've forfeited the right to shoot at anything not in a marker state that order, unequivocally, you only get an ARO if a marker state model reveals itself once you declare delay. The only thing the Coordinating Marker Troopers example is clarifying is how you delay against multiple markers at once, and what it makes clear is you "choose to react to one of the markers" and "see if the chosen marker reveals itself" which sufficiently makes clear that the intent here is for you to only get to ARO against that chosen marker.
Because there are three separate triggers that can be chosen from each of which may have its own specific restrictions (see below for a different example that uses a rule other than the marker state example so that we can be consistent in our interpretation). Still not convinced that it is in any way unequivocal :) Consider this situation. Fusilier Angus is standing out in the open and the Yu Jing player takes a co-ordinated order to move a ninja up behind the unsuspecting Angus into base to base and has a Kuang Shi step out in front of him. The Ninja declares something other than a short movement skill with their second skill. Which AROs would be allowed from the following: A) CC against Ninja B) Shoot Ninja C) Shoot Kuang Shi My understanding is that it would be A and C (although in the process of writing this I've now got doubts and it may just be A) Relevant rule text for this situation can be found here But for simplicity the pertinent line is "If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state."
This does not, however, override other restrictions, it just creates it's own. There is also the problem that all of these rules were written in the context of a single model being activated by an order and you must modify your understanding of the text to account for fireteams and coordinated orders.
I totally agree that the stealth rule is written from the context of a single model. My point, and the reason I added this stealth example is that everyone seems to be interpreting stealth in the context of referring to a single model but not the camo marker rule. To try and clarify... My understanding of the stealth situation is that the restriction applied (only certain skills available) applies only to the model with stealth (ignoring the timing issue from IJW, I'll come back to that separately). In that same line I take the camo situation (rulebook p.70) to be refering to AROs against that marker in the context of it also being a single model. If it were a single model then you'd definitely lose your ARO. If some other option is available then that remains available. Unless the ninja declares any non-Movement Short Skill (Stealth: P.102) in which case they would then get the opportunity to declare CC attach, dodge, etc. You are right though that the timing means that the Kuang Shi stepping out would've triggered an ARO earlier in the turn meaning the ninja wouldn't trigger anything on the second short skill. So there are certainly some plays that can be made to take advantage of that. Mostly my bringing up stealth was to highlight that other similar rules placing restrictions on AROs seem to be read as only refering to the triggering event but the camo marker one is being applied as a blanket total loss of ARO.
Except that there is an example specifically for multiple troopers activating, where some of them are markers.
There is. But that example doesn't account for the timing differences in Superfluid's case. In the rulebook example, there are 2 TO markers and an Orc. At step 4 of the turn order there are 3 potential ARO triggers that occur. The Raicho player chooses to delay declaration of an ARO as they are allowed to do this by the camo marker rules. The opportunity to ARO against the Orc has now gone as per the rules around losing an ARO if its not taken when available. By step 6 they are only left with the opportunity to ARO against a camo marker as it is the only thing that might provide a valid ARO trigger. In Superfluid's example it is at step 6 that Joan steps into the open and provides a new trigger opportunity. The defending/Raicho player has not yet taken an ARO and so Joan would seem like a valid target.
OK, I think I've worked out where the confusion lies. When you 'delay your ARO', this is a specific thing that you are declaring. It's not 'this trooper hasn't declared an ARO yet and is completely free to declare whatever they want'. So, as per the ARO rules, you must either declare an ARO or declare that you are delaying your ARO against a marker, or you lose your opportunity to declare an ARO at all. So in Superfluid's example, the Raicho has already declared that they are delaying their ARO against a marker, so cannot react to Joan. The Raicho can't retroactively change what they've declared.
Yeah, that is the source of a lot of the issues as nowhere in the rules (that I can find) does it say that you "declare that you are delaying your ARO against a marker". If you can point me at that then I'm 100% with you :) The only thing that comes close is the wiki example you linked: "The Morat TAG can only declare its ARO against one of the three looming PanOceanian troopers, and chooses to react to one of the TO Camouflage Markers. Since he is reacting to a TO Camouflage Marker, the Raicho may delay its ARO, so it waits until the PanOceanian player declares the second Short Skill of her Order to see if the chosen TO Marker reveals itself before declaring ARO" But note it says they choose to react to one of the camo markers and so may delay its ARO. Even the second sentence only says the player is waiting to see if the token reveals itself before declaring but with nothing tying it in to only shooting that target.
