thoughts on Play by intent

No, they're not, please cite a rule or section which in your vaunted RAW format supports your assertions, go ahead, I'll wait.

That quote only works for you if you have your incredibly narrow view of what LoF can exist between. To the rest of us who think that LoF is a constantly existing open information state and can be drawn to any point on the board at any time the quote works as a hypothetical query. "if i move there who would see me?" sort of thing. I was pretty sure i covered that the narrow view is incorrect by citing that templates get to draw LoF, which are neither models nor markers. I think psychoticstorm tried to dismiss that as another one of the ever growing exceptions that swallow the rule.

Oh boy, ok so Existing LoF means, to the majority, anything a model can see at this moment, like the corner of that building, or that spot you're asking about moving to, because everything is a potential target.

I think at this point you can stop the "we" bit, listen, its ok that you don't have authority delegated from CB, and i appreciate the work you and many others put into checking and testing the beta rules. Are there flaws, sure, are people human, of course. But to sit there and pretend to have the high ground with a position you clearly don't have is not only bad faith and misleading but if CB cared at all about this forum you run the risk of having your position striped, so just cut it out.

Here, I'll preempt the counters I can hear you saying now:

Psychoticstorm: "how do you know I'm not working for CB"
Me: because your historical post about once endorsing PBI and your current stance are completely inconsistent with the behavior of someone who actually created the game, and actually has the authority to change things. Because if you did we wouldn't be having this 45 page discussion, you would have made a ruling. Because you've demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how experienced rules drafters design rules. Because you're not one of the people who has permission to edit the wiki like IJW does (yes i checked)

I'll repeat myself since the gotcha camp seems to want to claim RAW without actually having a rule to back them up. Neither camp has a direct rule stating when LoF can be checked. The LoF rule is ambiguous and can be interpreted in at least two different ways.

So, if we can all accept that the RAW doesn't help either side without first coloring it with either a broad or narrow interpretation of what can have LoF drawn to it, can we move on to the point i tried to make about 20 pages ago? Lets talk about pros and cons because in a world where the RAW is ambiguous and conflicting interpretations abound, the best course is to choose which ever interpretation doesn't break the rest of the game. I've heard a litany of pros for PBI from users like Plebian, but none from the anti PBI, so i'm curious, what does no LoF except to other models and makers during order expenditure do to help the game?

 

We've heard enough. Apparently they want us to throw our models around corners like idiots during movement. Doing it meticulously to avoid AROs is not in the spirit of the game, whereas doing it quickly and still avoiding AROs is high skill.

The sad fact is, they have not written rules that compel anyone to play that way, and even if they did, it would never work in practice.

 

We're were and are fully aware that David wasn't as clear about a whole bunch of things as he might've been. But the original goal of the video was one thing, and the value of it now (and in this debate) is at least that it gives us a concrete foundation to work from.

We can point to the video, ask PyschoticStorm and IJW - 'is that correct?' and finally get some definitive answers about the game.
It was rushed, but Dan and David and I knew exactly what we were doing at the time, and I was always entirely clear about my intentions.

I use the word advisedly.

No doubt it's possible that David doesn't understand the nuances of the game as you imply, but while we were all pissing around in a 2 year argument about whether a player can force their opponent to help them position pieces, he managed to co-design a whole new game in Aristeia. No offense [sic] either, but the lack of respect for David as CB staff, and their associates in IJW and PyschoticStorm is wearing thin.

 

You may, but it is in the rules, you may believe you will reach that corner, but you are half a base short on movement, you may believe you are in those 8" but you are just out.

I was referring in general to what happens to the rules and why they can never be precise enouph, sure PBI can be exploited to give massive advantage to the active player, but at no point I think any player advocating PBI ever thought that or advocates PBI to exploit the system, I think they are players who deeply care about the system and do believe their preferred way to play is the best one.

The question for a FAQ entry is usually, how many? how often? how prevalent?

By the rules you cannot do that and this is what we argue, if you can bend over place the silhouette marker micro adjust it and then declare "this is were I intent my model to move", then why would we argue for play by intent, this is play by intent with an extra step.

 

Ok we are getting someplace. My argument for intent has always hinged on my ability to do it anyway so why bother not doing it.
I assume Wolf is also in agreement that this example broke the game rules?

So my next question.
I don't know who this guy is but he seams to be pretty important to infinity.

At 32.40 What are all of the game rules being broken?
The way this order is being played... would you describe it as Intent play?

 

How then do you deal with "I move to this corner to gain LOF to X and Back again?
By your own immediate admission you dont place a silly where you can see X. you only place the model at the final position.

Seriously storm a while ago you said that looking with your eyes was ok and now you are saying even that is not ok.

 

I mean you just said he looks and places the marker, How do you place a marker without looking to see if its where you want to place it, its nonsensical, do you just put it down blindfolded and hope it was where you wanted it to be?

@psychoticstorm how the am I supposed to do this? or are you arguing that I can only roughly place the marker but must live or die by its exact position?

 

I said it makes it seem as if he doesn't understand, not that I thought he didn't. The distinction is important if the intention is to provide evidence of how the game is meant to work.

Sorry, I hadn't noticed that IJW came down in favor of a specific side, but I could have missed it in the chaos.

@ijw , is that true? Are you also corroborating that the video illustrates the way that the entire CB design team intended for game to work, and you know this because you've discussed it with them? Also, that line lasers can only be used between models/markers, and only to check existing LoF beginning of an order, and again after declaration (same for silhouettes)?

 

Good find @Andre82!

Pretty amazing scene right there. Carlos says "that's legal" but he doesn't say it with much conviction and he seems to be a pretty sarcastic guy in general. Look at his body language. I wonder if he felt like he deserved to take that shot or not.

 

Normally i don't get involved in these sort of threads, but after reading all 46 pages of it - all i have to say is that I think i might belong to the most chill play group ever. I know I'm ALWAYS letting players adjust their models or whatever, especially if turning them a centimeter or two makes the difference of winning or losing the game.

I'd rather lose a game by my own merits by winning a game because my opponent forgot to check their six. Just my nickel (Canada got rid of pennies.. so it's the lowest currency i can throw in).

 

Nah, you can't trust him. I've seen him play before, and he gets stuff wrong all the time. :tonguewink:

 

Nope, you're not alone.

To be fair, both methods are chill, in a vacuum. The potential for conflict occurs when the two viewpoints end up on the opposite sides of the table from each other.

 

I've heard this argument before, in each of two separate games that transitioned from restricted to open information states as part of broader edition changes (introducing partial or unrestricted premeasuring, more open LOS rules, etc).

The idea that wargames are improved by physical skill gates like ability to eyeball LOF or most accurately place miniatures without physical aids is one that is slowly but rightfully being consigned to the dustbin of history. And good riddance.

 

He is @deep-green-x from this thread, I would call that a take back, even by playing with intent he should have declared he moves to the end as long as he cannot be seen.

We all know (or should know) how heavy are the BoW gameplay videos criticised by the community for rules errors, frankly I defend them because the camera and production time frame is a big pressure and more importantly the audience who sees it are potential or new players and watching the overall experience is more important than a few rules mistakes.

Looking with your eyes before placing the silhouette not during the placement, rules in general do not use silhouette for movement only for checking the volume in contested situations, but we all find them useful in more situations than just that and we use them for movement either indicating the desired final position or a contested point in the movement path (usually were an attack will happen), so I would place the silhouette at the corner and leave the actual model to the final intended position moving it if needs be.

 

How do you place it where you want without looking at it?

like seriously what....

 

That's actually very true. Our play group tends to be very forgiving, even in tournaments. We saw other gaming groups fall apart due to players yelling across the table at each other and decided that we didn't want that as part of our local community.

 

I think he was talking about Bostria.

 

I thought that too but it was @deep-green-x movement so.

 

From my experience, Infinity players yell at each other on the forum, and drink beer with each other in real life.

 

Preach. :)