This list would eat that one alive Nomads ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) ZOE & PI-WELL . (0 | 47) ZOE (Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Stop!) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28) PI-WELL Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 19) MORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) ZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) ZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / PistolKnife. (0.5 | 14) PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11) PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11) PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11) SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42) GROUP 2 1 3 2 MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6) HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 5.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army I find best solution is to just bring a hard counter list for a few games, should beat him down from it, 1-2 TR bots with a decent engineer will be tough for him to shift, leave warcor out in open to blind ppl best solution I find vs spam is -1 msv 2 troop to mop up on your turn as spam is often smoke spam -1-2 TR bots with a good engineer (any remote heavy army will trade well vs non camo/warband spam as they are easy to fix when the random crits go through) -ODD units that can suppress, msv 2 covering them is also good to stop ppl smoking them out. and if enemy is bs 11 or worse you can be funky with a TO troop, revealing to surprise shot 3-4 of them at the same time and splitting burst, hac tao is good for this. if they are bringing the cancer highlander army either stack up on MSV, or bring very durable missile launchers to try and hit multiple in one aro (though id actually refuse to play against the 4 combat groups of warbands, not cause its unbeatable but because its cancer and wastes time) edit- some other thoughts on the list -The issue of them just walking into DZ with flamers can be countered by CC troops just engaging, plenty of troops around with a 75% chance to pull off the dodge or even dodge into CC. Amusingly if played right your opponent cant actually deal with pupniks with the PH19 dodge and total immunity. -How does he deal with armour 9-10 tags? just throw flames at it? it has a 1/5 chance to do a wound each flame attack (then two 1/5 chances to burn it fully down) which can be done on the first turn, but what happens if he is going 2nd? The tag just needs to kill the ones locking him in, then can safely hunt down the rest. -Strong and smartly placed infiltration troops of your own, im assuming he deploys his grunts along your deployment zone in order to get the templates fully in first turn, start your TO dudes or camo dudes as close to the midline and then have them walk back towards your DZ to cut a hole in the grunt line. -I can see how this list is nearly an auto win if you are going first, but for it to fully work you would really want to be deploying 2nd and going first(and your opponent is an idiot if they give you both). if you deploy first your grunt net will be poorly optimised and you will have to either bunch them all up, or in one long line (providing they all make it) which lets your opponent get their TR bots or tough tags to have a stronger ARO responce against you on turn 1. Or they go first which while they will suffer from rough AROs they atleast have the advantage of either hotdropping a AD troop in perfect spot or even coming on from edge to dismantle the grunt web from a distance, or whatever tools they use (high PH troop just moving and making 1 dodge roll to avoid all the flamers). -This list will likely run over most tournaments from surprise value, though a few of top players might know how to break out of the grunt contain, though you still might take a fair few games of them just from dice luck. as stated by others the lack of any long ranged follow up makes this list kinda a dice roll to see if you win. Bad rolling on infiltration (at ph-3 you are on like a 40% chance each grunt makes it, so with your 12 on average only 4-6 will make it to be a threat, some games you will only have 1-3 and some you might get 11+. Games where the list fails to get most across have to rely on coordinated orders to deal with TR bots and the other general counters.
The answer the community generally plays is most tourneys I have been to in western united states is 2 combat groups max. This list is just not fun to play against and in a standard game you don't know what you are playing against. But if do allow this (just don't personally) and if you go first, highly likely you can punch out most of them. If you go second, you should know the absurdity of the list by the time you start deploying. Deploying against this is to play like 40k. Eschew cover in favor of longer range firelanes. A combi between 11-16 will protect you from the flamethrower and put the combi still in the +3 against the shotgun's +0. Flash and other 16+ range weapons are more preferred. Again, tr bots have no need for cover compared to more lof. Short version if they go this, ignore cover and grab as long of firelanes as you can and aro off the table, but just recommend 2 groups max.
There is no catch-all answer for a list like this, just ways to play around it. Outranging the grunts is the simplest way one can deal with it. An hmg or spitfire starting in a corner can pick them off one by one. I kinda wish someone around here would play that against me, it just feels like it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective in practice as it looks on paper.
Since when do Grunts have Camo? from Minelayer Any enemy Camouflage and Hiding Marker cannot be inside the Trigger Area of the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment when it is deployed. Perimeter does have the restriction, but then you can't use them on Active turn so they are less useful in this situation. If you are going second they can be placed just outside of reach and when he moves up...
I would be pretty boned with most of my lists if I was taken by surprise and playing a more normalized list. I might just try this list as a surprise next game night and see how it plays lol.
One thing to note is that the original combat group composition is very inefficient. I'd probably go for something like this: USAriadna Ranger Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 MINUTEMAN Lieutenant Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 22) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GROUP 2 10 GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GROUP 3 7 GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) GRUNT Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army This way each group would have a chance to be a serious threat.
What's the problem though? If you're deploying first and have second turn that is going to be a hazzle. If your List is weak at going second it's going to be a hazzle. If you're going second you'll need to counterdeploy 5-7 Grunts with an effective suicide Range of about 14" (Template + Move). If you're going first you should have no issues dealing with up to 7 suicide Grunts and/or killing his Lt - after that you can slow the US player down to a crawl with even basic Sniper or HMG AROs and/or SF to lock down firelanes. Sure, it's just another nail in the coffin of 10 Order Lists. But even the usual expendable array of Flashpulse Drones and Warcors can deal with this. Something Like a Swissguard, TAG etc can just leave Cover and split B in between 2-4 Grunts every Order. There is a reason you don't hear about people winning tournaments with this every other week. It's not a massive threat, has issues killing stuff that needs to be killed and relies mostly on an unprepared opponent.
I agree, never give away both, it's a very bad idea. Some people still like to pick second turn in Missions that "favour" going second. In those missions I often take Deployment, if I go second I get the advantage of being able to play the mission. If he gives me first turn I'm probably gonna put him into Retreat turn 2/3 so I can secure a win anyway. Not to look down on my opponents, but you can probably get away with it against weaker opponents, so people think it's a valid strategy. If you're getting deployment and first turn with a list that excels at pulling off an alphastrike that won't work. As usual the list itself is a third factor and I'm pretty sure you could get away with giving away both as long as you have very good AROs and a good matchup. Double Swiss/triple Noctifier ML vs a HI Link comes to mind.
Just an idea : Kazak can now deploy up to 4 TR drones, all of them shooting templates weapon. You are likely to loose 1 or 2 of them againts infiltrated grunts but on the other side you will also likely kill more than one of them with each shot. Plus frontovik sniper and Vet HMG in fireteam should be able to prevent anyone from leaving your opponent DZ (burst 2 ORA from Vet kazak or frontovik will beat any burst 3 rifle from a grunt) Plus : with that many troops in his DZ, your opponent is likely very vulnerable to guided shoot with template (or even coordinated guided shot) So what about this : Tartary Army Corps ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 6 VASSILY (Chain of Command) T2 Marksman Rifle, Akrylat-Kanone, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 39) DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) TRAKTOR MUL (Total Reaction) Uragan MRL / Electric Pulse. (1 | 18) TRAKTOR MUL (Total Reaction) Uragan MRL / Electric Pulse. (1 | 18) TM KURYER (Total Reaction) Uragan MRL, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) TM KURYER (Total Reaction) Uragan MRL, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) GROUP 2 8 VETERAN KAZAK Lieutenant AP HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 47) FRONTOVIK (Multiespectral Visor L1) AP Sniper / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31) LINE KAZAK Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) LINE KAZAK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) LINE KAZAK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
I unfortunately don't get to go to many tournaments, but I am quite sure I saw read that it was a commonly accepted, "home rule" most TO's enforced for logistics reasons. I think it was actually in response to my list that was something like, 42 Morlocks, an Interventor and 2 Massai FO's (for puutting out white noise to prevent MSV2 Snipers). My memory is fuzzy though, so if no one else has hears of this I am likely imagining it. Also, for reference, this was the list: Nomads ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 3 7 7 INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25) MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) GROUP 2 10 10 MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) GROUP 3 10 10 MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) GROUP 4 10 10 MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6) 1.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Between Smoke and MSV, this list will be able to move up the field more easily than more pure spam lists. It has 3 specialists, and roughly 4 Morlocks will end up with Dogged/NWI. Others will be faster or have super jump. If you kill 20 before they get close enough, it still likely won't be enough. One day I am going to have my friend get drunk and let me proxy this to see how it works.
@BlueDagger won the last Krug, Colorado's largest tournament, with a Morlock spam list. He did it specifically to make a point that these lists are harder to play against than people realize, and he actually owns all those Morlocks. We generally limit tournaments to two combat groups now.
@zombiemood who look like your table? Is there perhaps too much terrain on your tables? (yes, there can be too much terrain in Infinity )
We don't talk about that incident :) On this list Morlock spam list, it'll fall flat. Not enough regular orders.
