I've been pretty happy shooting Grunt Fireteams, much less HI or TAGs. I mean, it gets better the heavier they are, but it's already decent vs ARM 1 or 2. More is just a bonus. If it's getting hacked, that means there are Hackers in range, and you can fry them from behind the Firewall bonus. Yeah, crits are crits, what can you do? I'm not saying they're intensely optimized, but I've been having fun with it, and have had it perform well. They're surely not for everyone.
Yeah, if you're hunting 1W models with a 1W model, you're doing it wrong! Thought at 40pts it is much harder to trade up, since the 60+pt HI usually come with a side order of Marker State. Wouldn't be bad taking shots at Geckos or other S5+ models, especially if you can get out of their 180.
What HI and TAGs?:P I think that mine dispenser is ignored in this discussion. Its kind of game changer for Rudra.
It's definitively useful. Or it will be, once I manage to actually deploy the mine. Until then, eh :D Sigh. I think we are all in agreement high stats, and in particular high ARM values are overpriced, and this in turn means HIs and TAGs end up being overpriced. The ones used frequently come with visual mods or other useful tools. All of this means, Rudra isn't the best tool for hunting them. Honestly, in my opinion main way for Rudra to hunt such targets is to bring its repeater in range and let our excellent Hackers make them breakdance.
Again, in your meta. This is not universal. EDIT - in my meta it's common to see Xeodrons, Overdrons, Su Jian, Veteran Kazaks, Yan Huo, Al Fasids, The Unknown Ranger, Sogarats, Taskmasters and Kriza Boracs, and a whole bunch of ARM3 units like Grunts. So maybe we can agree that K1 is not useful for you and that you therefore don't value it, but that this doesn't translate into the game as a whole.
Dunno, in OSS I like that models offer wide toolset. Rudra is good example. It will drop mines, force ftf, hunt camo hidden on roof and also expand hacking area. I see lots of tactical uses and options. Is it expensive? Yup, but I can still have about 15-16 orders with her, daikini and posthumans. If she had any negative mod, she would be golden... But I guess, she can go into suppresive OR bring white noise through repeater. Dunno, time will tell. OSS is new and there are still lots of options and combinations to try.
We might be in agreement that they're pricy, but "overpriced" depends on context. If you can play expensive unit to its strengths, either because of your own player skill, or because its stats and skills are valuable in local meta, then that unit isn't overpriced. I think we all agree that Infinity isn't about finding units with the best cost/benefit ratio and focusing solely on them (think w40k and One List To Rule Them All mentality), but about putting together a plan and backups, and using tools that fit it to their best effect. TAGs or elite HIs might be expensive, but when you manage to pull off the strategy you've prepared for them they're worth every point. What I can agree about, that it's meta- and gamestyle-dependent.
Well... orders are king, so Infinity is very much about cost/efficiency ratio. If there is unit A and unit B that does same thing biut is cheaper, natural decision is to take unit B. If they are in same cost, cool factor steps in.
I have mixed feelings on them. K1 is clearly the favorite. Red fury has redundant shock when running with marksmanship, and Multi is very short ranged - REMs don't usually like short range (DTWs, mines, hacking....). One one side, it can be a farily effective unit at killing stuff. It is right on the point of being able to handle 99% of infinity on the active ( BS 12 + some sort of mod - in this case, Marskmanship 2). On the other hand, 40 points is not cheap AND it requires an extra order to be there. Fireteams tht carry the bot also tend to be *very* expensive, so I am always a bit skeptical of dropping him into one.
This is the important part. In most cases units A and B have enough differences to fit different strategies and playstyles. In those cases when the differences are too small - Teutons vs. other knights, Proxy Mk.3 vs Mk.4, some YJ HIs - then it's true that better optimized units clearly win. But most of the time the differences are significant, and it's the players that choose to ignore some of the available tools because they don't fit their style, meta, or simply because they don't see them as viable. As was the case with the stongest/weakest sectorial polls, we're not discussing actual power levels here, but players' perception of them. True, we pay through the nose for our units. Still, Rudra with a Yadu specialist in tow can be a very effective team. Deva?CSU has similar utility for almost half the price, but Rudra/Yadu win in terms of fire- and staying power.
If unit A does the same thing but is better at that, meaning you will use less orders on average, then it is a viable alternative to unit B. For example a TAG using it's 15/10 mvt + S6/7 to move faster, vault over sceneries, shoot over said sceneries instead of having to climb/walk around it, then dropping his specialist pilot/remote to do objective. If unit A has some sort of margin of error, like having several wounds, or structure, it may be viable too. Your unit B will be cheaper, but if it goes down from a single hit, you will then have to spend several orders positionning a unit C to do what B cannot do anymore, or use several orders healing said unit B. You had more orders, but you wasted more. If unit A is harder to remore than unit B, you will have less orders but it will cost your opponent more orders to deal with it, meaning on the whole game you may still win the "more orders" game. Order efficiency is not only "having more orders" ...
Exactly. OSS is "low order count - high order efficiency" army. There are multiple ways of making our units more deadly, so instead of spending 3-4 orders to deal with something we might need 2-3 of them. And most of the army is very resilient and resistant to lucky crits on opponent's side.
K1 ideal target : Jotum Spoiler: K1 Rudra vs Jotum, both in Cover http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/?p1.faction=Aleph&p1.unit=Custom+Unit&p1.w_type=STR&p1.type=REM&p1.cc=8&p1.bs=12&p1.ph=10&p1.wip=13&p1.arm=4&p1.bts=6&p1.w=2&p1.w_taken=0&p1.symbiont=0&p1.operator=0&p1.immunity=&p1.hyperdynamics=0&p1.ikohl=0&p1.ch=0&p1.msv=0&p1.marksmanship=2&p1.xvisor=0&p1.fatality=0&p1.full_auto=0&p1.remote_presence=1&p1.action=bs&p1.weapon=K1+Combi+Rifle&p1.stat=BS&p1.ammo=K1&p1.b=3&p1.dam=12&p1.range=8-16/+3&p1.link=0&p1.viz=0&p1.ma=0&p1.guard=0&p1.protheion=0&p1.nbw=0&p1.gang_up=0&p1.coordinated=0&p1.hacker=Assault+Hacking+Device&p1.hack_program=Blackout&p1.hack_b=1&p1.cover=3&p1.misc_mod=0&p2.faction=PanOceania&p2.unit=Jotums&p2.w_type=STR&p2.type=TAG&p2.cc=18&p2.bs=15&p2.ph=18&p2.wip=13&p2.arm=10&p2.bts=9&p2.w=3&p2.w_taken=0&p2.symbiont=0&p2.operator=0&p2.immunity=&p2.hyperdynamics=0&p2.ikohl=0&p2.ch=0&p2.msv=0&p2.marksmanship=0&p2.xvisor=0&p2.fatality=1&p2.full_auto=0&p2.remote_presence=1&p2.action=bs&p2.weapon=MULTI+HMG+(Anti-Materiel+Mode)&p2.stat=BS&p2.ammo=EXP&p2.b=1&p2.dam=15&p2.range=16-32/+3&p2.link=0&p2.viz=0&p2.ma=0&p2.guard=0&p2.protheion=0&p2.nbw=0&p2.gang_up=0&p2.coordinated=0&p2.cover=3&p2.misc_mod=0 I gave it Marksmanship L2. I used K1 Combi Rifle to mimic K1 Marksman Rifle; but put both in good range (if you try and engage under 40cm, Jotum can use DEP, which results in worse survival for Rudra). Active Player 50.86% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Jotums (2 STR) 15.64% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Jotums (1 STR) 2.08% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious) Failures 29.67% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 19.47% Jotums inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 STR) 10.74% Jotums inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious) 2.53% Jotums inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious 2) Spoiler: Dakini HMG vs Jotum, both in Cover http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/?p1.faction=Aleph&p1.unit=Dakini+Tacbots&p1.w_type=STR&p1.type=REM&p1.cc=8&p1.bs=11&p1.ph=10&p1.wip=13&p1.arm=0&p1.bts=3&p1.w=1&p1.w_taken=0&p1.symbiont=0&p1.operator=0&p1.immunity=&p1.hyperdynamics=0&p1.ikohl=0&p1.ch=-3&p1.msv=0&p1.marksmanship=0&p1.xvisor=0&p1.fatality=0&p1.full_auto=0&p1.remote_presence=1&p1.action=bs&p1.weapon=HMG&p1.stat=BS&p1.ammo=Normal&p1.b=4&p1.dam=15&p1.range=16-32/+3&p1.link=0&p1.viz=0&p1.ma=0&p1.guard=0&p1.protheion=0&p1.nbw=0&p1.gang_up=0&p1.coordinated=0&p1.cover=3&p1.misc_mod=+3&p2.faction=PanOceania&p2.unit=Jotums&p2.w_type=STR&p2.type=TAG&p2.cc=18&p2.bs=15&p2.ph=18&p2.wip=13&p2.arm=10&p2.bts=9&p2.w=3&p2.w_taken=0&p2.symbiont=0&p2.operator=0&p2.immunity=&p2.hyperdynamics=0&p2.ikohl=0&p2.ch=0&p2.msv=0&p2.marksmanship=0&p2.xvisor=0&p2.fatality=1&p2.full_auto=0&p2.remote_presence=1&p2.action=bs&p2.weapon=MULTI+HMG+(Anti-Materiel+Mode)&p2.stat=BS&p2.ammo=EXP&p2.b=1&p2.dam=15&p2.range=16-32/+3&p2.link=0&p2.viz=0&p2.ma=0&p2.guard=0&p2.protheion=0&p2.nbw=0&p2.gang_up=0&p2.coordinated=0&p2.cover=3&p2.misc_mod=0 Again, Dakini gets Marksmanship L2 (I just gave it +3 modifier to make up for not being able to select it) Active Player 31.84% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Jotums (2 STR) 4.89% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Jotums (1 STR) 0.36% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 3 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious) 0.01% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 4 or more wounds on Jotums (Unconscious 2) Failures 56.82% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 11.34% Jotums inflicts 1 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious) 9.02% Jotums inflicts 2 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious 2) 3.80% Jotums inflicts 3 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Dead) ;TLDR : Rudra has 67% more chance to wound Jotum (50% chance vs 31% chance). However, it also has 72% more higher chance to take wounds (19% vs 11%) in return - it has almost the same chance to take 2W as Dakini has to be hit. Is that twice as effective? Remember, this is ideal target for Rudra. EDIT: Updated writing to make it clear, as per Nenyx comments.
Just nitpicking a bit, but 30 to 50% is not a 20% increase but a 20 points increase. It is roughly a 67% increase (0.5 / 0.3 = 1.67), meaning the average wounds by order spent is far greater, or if you prefer, the average number of orders required to kill is far lower.
You are correct, I wrote it down unclear (was planning to write both direct difference and relative value).
Also adding data for Wu Ming (a more commonly seen average HI), armed with HRL (a more common ARO type piece): Spoiler: Marksmanship L2 K1 Rudra vs Wu Ming, both in Cover http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/?...p=0&p2.coordinated=0&p2.cover=3&p2.misc_mod=0 Active Player 56.58% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Wu Ming (1 W) 18.55% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Wu Ming (Unconscious) 2.57% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Wu Ming (Dead) Failures 33.38% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 10.04% Wu Ming inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 STR) 5.02% Wu Ming inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious) 2.51% Wu Ming inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious 2) 1.25% Wu Ming inflicts 4 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Dead) Spoiler: Marksmanship L2 Dakini HMG vs Wu Ming HRL, both in Cover http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/?...p=0&p2.coordinated=0&p2.cover=3&p2.misc_mod=0 Active Player 65.69% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Wu Ming (1 W) 27.35% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Wu Ming (Unconscious) 6.18% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 3 or more wounds on Wu Ming (Dead) Failures 27.47% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 6.84% Wu Ming inflicts 1 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious) 4.79% Wu Ming inflicts 2 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious 2) 3.35% Wu Ming inflicts 3 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Dead)
Ok. Now let's see that Rudra can get that single wound and still remain operational. Risk of going unconscious after ARO is actually slightly lower than in Dakini's case. Additionally - and this is a big deal - risk of spending order to no effect goes down from 56 to 29%. This is order efficiency. When confronting a TAG in cover you really want to have something able to deal with it fast, instead of spending more orders and effectively squandering any quantity advantage you might've had in that regard. edit: also, when going against unit with MSV of any kind - a common sight - Dakini's advantage from Mimetism evaporates.
Rudra goes unconscious 10,74% of the time, while Dakini goes 11,34%... I guess you are correct. I guess your numbers hold up if you count "losing wounds/troopers in ARO" as "Order efficiency"... And remember - this is the ideal target for Rudra vs definitively-not-ideal Dakini target. Already at Wu Ming we see Dakini overtaking significantly the Rudra. Yeah, Rudra still has some advantages (Mine Dispenser, Climbing Plus, built-in Repeater) yet Dakini is essentially half the cost (yes, they cost 1 SWC, but honestly, on what are you spending SWC anyway). Oh, and I can predict someone will pop in saying: "That's because Dakinis are OP"
