Im using frenzy as an advantage, because it means they start the game with the benefit of cover which warbands do not. Onc2 frenzy kicks in they become regular impetuous and you may choose to use or not the order depending in board situation You also completely misinterpreted how mml2 works as someone already pointed out. Thats only a 70% chance to wound achilles, why would he not pick ma 3 and reduce your crit treshold ? Also the domaru is better at getting Achilles out of the game in 1 order. 86% chance to imm2 him in one order using your ma4 achilles and 78% to do so with ma3. And that will completely disable him you are banking in 70% succeeding 3 times in a row, and having those 3 models on that side of the board. Im saying if you treat the domaru as 26 point warband and no hi you are going to think it is trash, but you seem to refuse to see him as anything else so we might as well get done with this conversation. Proper aro placement will eat a lot of those warbands, this is not a problem the domaru have. If you want to argue saito is better in cc than a domaru? Yeah not much argument there, but there is a reason he costs more. The argument is ridiculous in the first place there is a reason people take an aquilla or hospitaller hmg when they could afford 3 fusilier ones instead. Next issue we are going to be told cameronians are bad too.
You're Berzerking vs Achilles, right? MA3 doesn't negatively affect Berzerk. Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attributeof an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll (From http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/CC_Special_Skills) Berzerk is not a FTF roll.
That is peculiar the martial arts page itself never references f2f rolls except for noting ma5 specifically and only in the reactive
That's because the wiki converts a linear publication to a non-linear format. In the rules "how to read CC tables" appears before Martial Arts. @ijw can we have everything with a CC Table link to the "How to read CC tables" section? This issue also comes up with people adding +1 Dam to non-Ph weapons.
I did because of a misreading of your comment about cover. "3 points of armor seems to make a lot of difference otherwise why take cover against models with marksmanship at all ? or why use blast mode boarding shotguns, 3 armor clearly means nothing at all." You use blast mode on shotguns because taking cover is better than the 1 point of DAM. As for marksmanship, if you know you're very likely to win the f2f, there's no reason to take cover. You completely misinterpreted how MA works as someone already pointed out. I'm much more likely to get 3 warbands to the other side of the table because of extra orders and smoke than a Domaru. No, I'm not saying he's a warband, I'm saying he's vastly inferior to warbands. There's a difference. A domaru is going to eat a sniper the same as any warband. Remember the best a domaru can shoot is 24 inches and he's BS12 with no visual mods. A 26 point ninja costs the same and is better in CC due to surprise attack. People don't take Hospitaller HMGs unless they're linking them, and the reason you take the Aquila is for the MSV3, not because of anything else on the profile. But yeah, a linked Fusi HMG is better than a Hopsitaller in terms of winning the f2f roll, and also gives 5 orders for like 15 points more...
Why? Last time I played against JSA, I think that's exactly what happened. Domaru in a link came up and punched something in the face. Good cc, dirt cheap discount weapons, shoots like a Fusilier, sounds like something that should go to CC.
This Domaru thing is a derivative of the use of CC20 on the Montesa and the use he can make of it with Assault. @Teslarod and @meikyoushisui say that CC20 is just pointless as shooting is always better to take anyone out since the knight as BS14 and a Chaincolt. There was a disagreement and then Teslarod said that even Domaru was useless in CC compared to WB like Monks, @Skoll disagreed and here we are. I think that there is something that is not taken in account in your debate : the delivery system and ressources use for the Domaru and for a WB like a Monk. For the Monk, you only move one guy and use a lot of orders to do so. You are even on the same level with the Domaru if the ARO troop as a MSV 2+. So, likely 5-6 orders to come in CC with a Domaru that will kill it in the first strike while the Domaru will be standing alive. Then you send a new Monk to put it unconscious and lose a second monk. You should have spend around 10 orders to just put unconscious a 26 pts model that will not be a threat before being in your half of the table. It cost you 10 pts but I would never call it worth it as a Doctor can be around and bring back this guy for just 2 orders. For the Domaru, the delivery system is costier in points if you say that you do this just in order to use the CC of the Domaru. But the fact is that anyway, you would use this plateform and you can link a Domaru to it and have it delivered for the same order cost as your two Monks but you have removed ennemy troops in the way and your Domaru is still alive. And he doesn't die on the first fail dogde against an AP mine that was planted there by a Ryuken-9. The same for the Hospitaller HMG. You pay for a plateform that will still shoot after having recieved a Crit. Once a Fusilier HMG is critted, it is over. You won't go further with your link full of combi rifles. Probabilities are good to know the odds but that's just probabilities. 2W models are costier in the case where probabilities begin to suck. And about the Assault on a Montesa on a bike, well, it is a niche but this skill gives you the possibility to make huge move while having still a FtF. I don't see Assault as a CC skill, honestly. I find it more likely it to be a movement skill that needs a ennemy target to be used. For quadrant control or Supremacy, this skill gives you the possibility to steal victory. If the Montesa stays in the 40-60 pts bracket, well, I think he will be gorgeous.
I see the Montessa as about 50-60 points on a bike (depends on how expensive Mech Deploy is versus Motorcycle), assuming that the only change is trading Mech Deploy for Motorcycle. The Dynamos make it look like a Motorcycle without Impetuous is ~10pts. Points might go down if you add Impetuous, and would definitely go up if you added smoke/Eclipse/Nimbus and/or some other cover mod like Mimetism or ODD. Points would also go up if you increased CC or added MA. CC20 with Assault is good enough for CC to be an option against anything less. Take a swing at anyone higher and/or with MA/Berserk and you're doing it wrong. Not to forget that you can just tank one hit on the way in and murder whoever was foolish enough to take the shot at you. Not Ideal, of course (if someone can hit you, you're doing it wrong!), but it means you can afford to cross ground covered by a single ARO without a care.
@Ayadan the point is not to have a 1v1 match of Domaru vs Monk. It's about comparing how a Domaru fares in CC against the most common troops compared to a cheap warband or a proper JSA CC Specialist like Neko, Saito or Yojimbo. Assuming you don't want to give your opponent normal rolls all the time the Domaru isn't very good at killing stuff next to some very stiff internal competition. The cheapest Domaru gets you 4-5 warbands with 10 Orders in between them to move, Smoke and beat people up in CC. Part of why Warbands are so good is their built in Order efficiency. Some of them will die to AROs, but that's alright. Thanks to being able to afford multiple warbands where you only get 1 Domaru and having Smoke on top of the usual Chainrifle + CC combination they're more versatile and flexible, covering a large area of the table. With multiple (potentially Dogged) bodies that can oppose in FTF with a Smoke on 17, they're also a lot more resilient than the big samurai. It's a bit of an apples and oranges example as classic warbands don't exist in JSA. But there is Neko who gets some very important upgrades. Or Yojimbo who has massively increased utility. Even linked Domaru mostly enable a B5 Spitfire and Neko/Tanko. If it wasn't for high burst shooting they'd be quite obsolete in their own Link. 26 for a Chainrifle isn't quite that great next to Magister/Hospitaler Links and Riot Grrrls. Sure ganging up against a hard target with several Domaru is gonna spell almost certain death. But other JSA troops already get overwhelming odds when alone and are a lot more efficient.
Seems everywhere we could have reasonably seen a new TAG, we won't. TAK, Varuna, IA... Guess TAG means "That's All, Guys". OTOH the last army needing more TAGs is PanO.
Well, I would say tha Oyama has something in his cost that make me scatch each time I compare him to a Domaru. 2 pts for +1CC, +1 WIP, +3 BTS, Breaker Pistol instead of Pistol and the shock CCW improved to EXP CCWP? I think that there is something that isn't right in his cost. He should be at 30-31 pts to me. But, you only have one Oyama and while he is really good to kill most of the stuff, I agree with you, if he dies, you only have Domarus. As long as the target doesn't have Total Immunity, in fact. So, there are troops that will be able to survive to him and not perform that wonderfully against the regular Domaru : Dogfaces (McMurrough in the first place), Sun Tse and Karakuri. Well... at least, Karakuri will take you time to kill while a Domaru will disable one in one strike and you just need to murder the Engineer to consider it dead. So, I wouldn't discard the Domaru just because he is a bit less effective to kill 1W troopers compared to Oyama. For some scenarios, you want to keep Oyama alive (The Grid, Frostbyte, Looting and Sabotaging...) and there the humble Domaru will shine as the one who will go first in CC, clear the way for Oyama who will play with the consoles/antennas. In addition, you really need more than one Domaru in JSA list so, even if the Domaru is not a CC star like their character, you can't say that your link will suck in case you need a CC guy around.
Well, with the AC with 5 TAG choices and Nomad being still at 4, our advance in variety shorten time after time. I wouldn't be against a new TAG, just to see what CB could propose to PanO in the TAG territory now. But maybe our old and loved Squalo will receive something new with Varuna.
We don't know the full roster for VIRD, so I wouldn't completely rule a new light TAG. Or a SHI. Looking at what we know so far mid to long ranges are covered very well. Even with Montesa present, there's still some design space for another CQB unit. I wouldn't rule out some changes to what is available to us at the moment, for example Cutter getting its HFT back.
I think I mentioned it over in a JSA thread (for Domaru bikers), a HI biker would make good use of battle ravaged to represent having their bike blown out from under them as a point discounting tool. I was also [comic sans]personally offended[comic sans] when TAK got regular, non-impetuous bikers as IMO the whole purpose of the irregular order was to represent the bike's movement/momentum, not the inherant insanity of the rider (though I know a few...) and I always thought it would make sense for Mavericks to only be impetuous when mounted (yet another example of TAK stealing from USARF, this time from my head-canon).
I think there's a niche for a close-ranged light assault TAG in PanO (based around double HSG or something). Much more interesting than taking a signature unit of one sectorial (NCA) and transplanting it into another. Maybe when CB frenches NCA and releases Sval ;)
Remember that the Squalo is the most used TAG in all the PanOceanian Army. ASA and MO are exceptions. The first because it hosts already the Tikbalangs and the extremly specialized Dragoon regiments of Dragao and the second because they don't have access to the regular PanO stuff and have designed a TAG that fits their own way of fighting. I was surprised at first too but it makes sens to see the most common TAG of PanO being part of an other sectorial. And Cutters regiments might not be that huge due to the cost production of the thing and the training of the pilot. I'm sure we will see Squalo in other sectorials. Maybe not for Svalarheim as I don't if a Squalo can stand the climate but for the Earth Bastion Army, I'm sure we will see them in.
