I'd been thinking about this interaction and it's a bit concerning because it opens some cheesy strats that would be bad sportsmanship IMO. Disclaimer: I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here, really mean rules layering just for making a point but I don't think this is fair or intended and I don't encourage players to use this kind of wordiness to bend rules to their favour, this is just theorical. Keep your games fair and fun ;) The Engage rules states: If the Roll is successful, then the user Dodges all Attacks against him and moves into base to base contact with his target at the final location previously declared. In the Volume_and_Silhouette_Templates it states: Q: Are these two miniatures in base to base contact? A: Yes, as their Silhouette Volumes are touching each other. Also an old response confirm that it would be legal to move a model from the floor to the wall when engaging: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/28116-solved-engaging-a-climber-plus/?page=2#comment-667609 This make the climbing plus models dangerous to engage (if your own mini don't have it) as they can just run with his second action to a wall and pin you down (or up?... whatever). The thing here is that a mini without climbing plus in the wall is climbing and cannot ARO. And here we go with the rules lawyering: As it's legal to place them in the wall AND base to base is equal to Silhouette with Silhouette, then it would be legal (or at least very very hard to rebut) to place an engaging mini in the wall EVEN if your own mini is in the floor. For example, a S2 mini height is 40mm, if you are at less than that from a wall, you can place its base in the wall as long as its S is touching yours, you two would be in b2b. I'd like to see this kind of tricks patched, restricting a bit more the placement of the engaging mini or at least giving the engaging player a bit of choice. I'm ok to being drived to the enemy DZ or placed in a roof if i try to engage a bike or a Super Jump model, but not with having my TAG placed into the armory or my CC specialist in a wall. Something like this: If the engaging mini don't have Climbing plus, then it can only be placed in the wall if there is no way to place it engaged from a non vertical surface. If a mini without Climbing plus is going to be placed in the wall, its player may decide not to allow it, then the active player must place it as close as possible to that wall and to the surface the engaging mini is placed (in this case they won't be engaged) (this is, you can't put it in the roof if the engaging model is in the floor and viceversa) If there is no way for an engaging mini to normally access to where it is gonna be placed then: A) the active player must place it as closest as possible but in a localization where it may normally reach following the closest path (in this case they won't be engaged) (this is, if a mini sneak into the armory, the TAG would be placed adjacent to one of the doors but not inside) -OR- B) the active player must end its movement in a localization where the engaging model may normally reach (this is, in this case the TAG and the active model would be engaged, the active model inside the armory and the TAG adjacent to one of the doors, engaged with the other model) In the second point A or B would be possible rullings if you want to benefice the engaging player or the active player. Thoughts?
The movement rules should take care of this if they're rules lawyered to the same degree as engage must be, because climb is a separate skill, not mentioned in engage... Climbing plus ads a few more mental gymnastics to work around, but ultimately it should not possible to move a model onto a wall without its owner's consent.
I don't personally have any issues with it happening when the active trooper has Climbing Plus as that's going to be known by he reactive player, and isn't that widespread a skill. But it always feels 'wrong' if the active trooper is staying on the ground.
To be fair, the only time this was ever declared legal was with palanka said it was and it was with a climbing plus model. Palanka never said it was legal without climbing plus and the rules do not say that placing a model to be climbing on a wall is inherently legal. So, it is not always within the rules to do so.
Yeah from my understanding if you have a model standing on the ground with a wall nearby they can force someone who engages them on to the wall, and then wail on them in cc when the model forced into climbing can do nothing. I always make it clear that you have to place an enemy model on the ground, if possible, when engaging, as one of the (very limited) set of house rules I employ in tournaments. Along with dismounting during the first skill of an order only, when that was in doubt, for example.
It takes a relatively "open" interpretation of several grey areas to result in placing in models on walls while you're still on the ground. You can clearly take a model with you onto a wall if you have climbing plus. But to place them on the wall while on the ground is dubious, and at a minimum frowned upon.
I HATE this rule.... I hate this rule so much. Nothing quite like a Zero slowly killing Kitsune because her player thought engaging was ever a real option. It seams pretty clear to me that this is absolutely ITS legal and it should not be. I would honestly be surprised that ANY TO honored this rule as oppose to house ruling it away.
Note its not officially ruled anywhere. its a grey area which requires extrapolation. I think agreeing not to extrapolate is not quite house rule territory.
Absolutely. It goes in the same basket as doors for me . I just know some people break out in a rash when you call something a "house rule"
Rules should be changed to specify that bases must be parallel. Unless this wall thing was intended by cb staff....
That's just for the movement from the reactive trooper's original position to part of the active trooper's movement path.
I'm glad the general opinion is against the exploit :) The problem is this ability doesn't follow any normal movement rules, if the engage is legal (you can reach them in a normal movement 2 plus kinematica inches) you remove it from board and then place it in base to base. As this placement is not extrictly regulated this kind of open interpretations are in a grey area where you can't deny them for placing you in the wall. You have to place it in base to base, and as the wall is a legal surface in this game from where you can be placed in base to base and nowhere is stated that you must be placed in a non vertical surface if possible, then this can be done. Don't get me wrong, I won't do this to any of my oponents but it's necessary to raise awareness about this kind of interactions to get them fixed or at least not to get caught with pants down in a tournament (you can always ask the judges if this is allowed and play with that in mind)
