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Xenotech + Smoke + MSV2 problem

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Teslarod, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I have no idea of your meta or perhaps you don’t see good ISS players but it’s a quite common link and a quite powerful one. I don’t care what you think about accepting what fate, the point stays the same, in practice you won’t have that many other targets to do this with, yes the xenotech doesn’t die but you won’t kill noticeably more compared to that haris.

    What do mean tax? You mean like every other link member is a “tax” to get a bonus? What logic is this?

    Nonsense, it’s exactly as trivial to do as with a xenotech, for some reason beyond me you just seem to want to the xenotech to be much worse because reasons.

    Yes, they are slightly better than TO surprise attacks on ARO pieces. I don’t even know why you seem to be under the impression that I don’t recognise that this a bad mechanic, even when I’ve stated it multiple times.
    FAT2 is a much more toxic mechanic in active turn. Pokemons in its current iteration are much more toxic.
    Also, I’m confused. You say xenotech missions but it isn’t xenotech that introduced this mechanic it’s HSN3, just use your own HVT and place it literally 1 short skill away from your attack piece and you’re good to go. Sure it cost 1 order, 2 if you’re unlucky, but you’re using those anyways to position yourself.

    Claiming something is “the most broken thing evah” after you constructed a list in a format that very few people play due to the fact that almost everyone agrees that the format is unbalanced by nature, is hyperbole. Not sure why you engage in logical slight of hand by attempting to downplay it to “I’m merely pointing out...” but okay.
    Also I’ve written all these responses with a tired apathetic face. I have no idea why you think I’m being hostile when I came from the start and said “calm down, the sky isn’t falling”. You seem to be heavily emotionally invested in this and perhaps you make this accusation due to the fact that you’re projecting, who knows.

    Anyways I’m tired and I’ve said what I wanted to say about this subject so I’m out. Peace!
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Building a list that includes not one but two Zhanying and good ISS player has been mutually exclusive in my vocabulary.
    Might be a meta thing, might be you're right. That looks like an agree to disagree and move on.

    Civilian + Smoke trick compared to TO Surprise Attacks vs Links is a tiny bit better than "slightly". For example the generic linked ML who doesn't get to shoot back at all against the former and doesn't really give a damn about Surprise Attack. Also isn't a one shot before you need to reenter Marker State. Also doesn't require positioning in proximity to your HVT or spending Orders at all. The OP describes in detail that the mechanic already existed before and mentions it's the sudden easy access to it as well as a trivial setup for it with no Order requirement whatsoever that makes it seem like this was not intentional.
    While I intensly dislike Mates and FAT2 as mechanics, it somehow feels pointless to rank them. Each has their own case, like the flu and pneumonia, both problems should be treated regardless if one is worse than the other.
    That said I'd actually rank Pokemon and FAT2 less of a problem, which as mentioned above still doesn't matter.

    Did you actually read the OP? Might check on that hyperbole alert of yours, seems to be backfiring.
    Don't get so hung up on SoF, we both know it doesn't matter for the sake of the argument. That's just nonconsequencial persoanl background story you're free to disregard. My Alpeh, YJ and JSA can do the same shit just fine without SoF. In Fact my shiny new Asura could see an actual table instead of ceeding her slot to Achilles for once because of it.

    Erm nah completely wrong. Cross my heart. I don't give a shit which way this gets ruled, as long as there is a decision. Might want to reread this entire thing in a very slow and calm voice as if I'm talking to a toddler, maybe that'll fix it? :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    What's with people and the internet interpreting tone into shit all the time anyway? What kind of people do you guys have to deal with in your lives, seriously get out of that toxic environment as long as you can, my condolences.
    The purpose of this thread is to make sure it's not an oversight CB might want to consider tweaking (as possibly suggested by Hellois' comment). Not going to have the same argument 5 games in a row if it can be avoided by posting it here as a preemptive measure.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The difference is between 1 option that costs ~100pts to put on the table and can't score vs being able to do it trivially with any MSV2.

    It's not the worst interaction in the game. It's just bad design and can be trivially dealt with.

    90% of the problem goes away if you read the Dodge FAQ as "you need LOF to an active Hostile to be able to Dodge, you don't need to be the subject of an attack" (that interpretation is not inconsistent with any rule that exists right now).

    It all goes away simply by @HellLois going "Neutral Civilians never provoke AROs even when in the Civevac state. This is a temporary ruling and we'll provide a more considered response in an FAQ in due course."

    The frustration isn't that this is that bad, it's that it's that easy to deal with. The hyperbole is a symptom of that frustration.
     
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  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    The Hsien Haris is strong but Ok because it costs 115pts and 2.5 SWC and has weaknesses and opportunity costs (I've played it). Even then some people dislike the idea of it, but tend to find it OK in practice.

    Getting the same trick (but better cause you can't kill the civvie) for free with the Xenotech isn't so OK IMHO. It's too skewed and seems like a gamey exploit.

    The Xenotech just shouldn't provoke AROs.
     
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  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    What an astonishingly arrogant statement.

    More projection.
     
  6. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    As I am mentioned here...some words on the matter. Those 2 hours are possibly meant metaphoricly as we had some discussions about that...and followed some discussion. I agree that houserules, actually affecting/changing the ruleset, are the worst possible sollution for a problem. The thing is: XenoTech already has become a problem, besides of any comparisons to existing mechanics that allow pretty much the same. We just couldn't ignore the fact that

    Imagine you are going for a tournament as an organizer and want people to enjoy their time. It's not how it can be exploited, how big of an impact it will have, much much of a tax you have to pay for Haris Links, how many orders you have to spend to get your own HVT...it's that people are actively and openly planning to use it...no allegations to teslarod here! He is not the only one playing by the rules (strictly speaking), while seeing them as broken. And it's not that we wanted to prevent only teslarod from doing so, but there were simply too many people in too many groups having the exact same thought at the exact same time.

    For the most part I would go with the rules all the way...and it is a legal mechanic. Houseruling this is like Pandora's Box, opening up a whole new bunch of problems. But Xenotech just seems to elevate some very incidential use of these rules to a general gaming mechanism in ITS. And this to me just feels wrong...and I guess most people will agree if they get hit hard by the same "tactic" three or even five games in a row. We feel that this can (important! CAN...I am not saying it "will") be detrimental to a good gaming experience...just as playing against the very same Mate-heavy Tohaa list five times in a row.
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    What @Sergej Faehrlich said.

    The essence of the problem is who will be able to use it.
    Yes in theory it's going to be everyone. However reality will be different. Far from everyone will be aware of this.

    If this is supposed to be part of the game a rules example mentioning this interaction would go a long way.
    If it isn't intended to provide a way that breaks ARO mechanics in a way they stop working properly, this should probably get addressed.

    The Xenotech is just a symptom of the overall problem. Widely available and easy to set up with no downsides. Just fixing it the interaction for Civilians is one way to go about it.
    Not changing how this works is also acceptable, but it would be great if the FAQ or Wiki could have an example to confirm.

    I'm sorry you feel that way.
    Hey there are vocal defenders of Orc Haris and a defensive Bolt Core. Admittedly the Hsien Haris isn't quite as bad, but you have to draw the line somewhere right?
    Everyone is entitled to his oppinion, don't get so upset if someone disagrees with yours.
    Oh you're finally done with the hyperbole thing. Good, what's next?
    Ah a dramatic exit followed by a less dramatic return. Welcome back to the discussion mate.
     
    #47 Teslarod, Sep 8, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The only impact SoF has is to open the door to PanO at this moment... And it can be quite boring to see the game decided just by who won Initiative.

    Because this can be pulled out with just 29 points and 0.5SWC (Agema Mk12), and because I'm not sure a Marut being able to do that trick is a little more broken than the Hsien (+1 wound, extra damage, extra BS, armor 11 on cover...).
    Ah, and 33pts 1 SWC means Deva Functionary with Spitfire and MSV2 (not hackable) that can possibly link in Vedic, but we don't know with what or if there will be smokers there.

    And a CA list can pull this off without expending a single regular order once per turn: 2 Daturazi (redundanzi, escort, etc...) throw the smoke with their Extremely Impetuous order, then the Charontid moves + fires with the Lt order. The Hsien cannot spend the Lt order, because of him being inside of a Fireteam.

    Imagine the worst part: you are player and go, with your happy list, unaware of the trick, and you get pummeled all rounds with this.
    Kinda easy to go from there to "I pass from this shitty game".

    Unless there are some MSV2 mercenary going around, I think Ariadna cannot play this trick (and several sectorials, but the faction itself can).
    And yeah, those unaware of this will be sitting ducks, far from happy to discover this... while the players who know the trick will concede the first turn or face total wipe of their troops without a chance to return fire.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Can also be done to MSV-equipped models by factions with access to HD+ (or SOF)
     
  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Can the discussion be a bit calmer?
     
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  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yup, but there are about 3 factions with H+, and I'd say Nomads would have the advantage there, followed by CA then Aleph. And it's not as a heavily broken combo, since ALL the enemy units without MSV can still see the attacker. Since there are only a few troops with MSV on each list (usually not more than 2 in Vanilla, with Sectorials having sometimes linkable troops with MSV1, but I think only the Riot Grrls have a full link of 5, since the Baos are AVA4 and even have 2 profiles without MSV).

    So yeah, it is a combo with White Noise too, but less universal, and fixing one can fix the other.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's more a case of what's sticking their noses out. If you have an opponent who's got their entire team looking up and trying to lock you down with ARO, you'll likely be able to brute-force it and you'll likely be able to kill 1 model per order which is terrible attrition rate for the AROing opponent.

    Reality is more likely to allow you to get at a couple or three models and if what you have to contend with is a Nisse sniper, a Kamau sniper, and a TR HMG, sticking the Xenotech on a Yan Huo and letting Uhahu prevent those from shooting and then letting Armand deal with the TR HMG normally while the Yan Huo will then proceed to rip the Nisse and Kamau apart - all in fairly few orders leaving the PanO with that many fewer and all worse ARO options for the rest of the game.
    Naturally, Yu Jing and Pan-O would need Uhahu for this, but Aleph has strong MSV2 and non-MSV choices and don't really need SOF to offer them this dual option.

    So the issue isn't so much specific to a few armies as it is specific to the interaction between ANY Zero-v zone that certain models can see through and a Civilian attachment - so suddenly we're talking about any army being able to abuse this in various ways except basically Ariadna, and any unit potentially being vulnerable to it.
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Oh, that I agree wholeheartedly. The only point I disagree is that the Albedo/WhiteNoise + xenoarqueologist interaction makes a much smaller impact than the smoke one, simply because the usual thing to do is leaving some non-MSV troops into ARO duty, while leaving more than one MSV ones is rare. And frankly, the piece of the game that suffers is the ARO Fireteam with 4+ members, which is what most people uses the Fireteam Core for (considering that moving a 5man Fireteam ove the table can be tricky).

    Anyway, regardless of our opinions, we agree that this needs fixing, and looks a lot more like an Exploit than the change to Suppressive Fire stacking with Fatality L2.
     
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  14. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think this was lost in all the noise...

    So what does everyone think about being able to declare delaying an ARO against a model in smoke?

    In my view this is a simple fix that enables a regular shooting ARO at -6 against the model that's likely to shoot you through smoke and fixes all the glitches with this. It slightly nerfs MSV2 but only in edge cases of ARO forcing and fixes all the awful ARO forcing. It works just like camo. The game already deals with the scenario where there's a hidden model that's going to attack you and it works just fine.
     
  15. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    But it works with Camo because you actually have LoF against the marker. Makes no sense when you can’t see the actual enemy.

    I think you either “fix” Xenotech/CivEvac or you let be and that’s it. My two cents.
     
  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    You can't delay an ARO vs a model in smoke (and outside your ZOC) because you usually don't have one until they shoot you with their second short skill anyway, unless you have MSV2+ in which case you don't need to. Neutral models not provoking AROs by themselves seems like it would fix it though.
     
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  17. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I missed it, but to provoke aro, you must be a trooper. But the xenotech is a neutral civie that is g:synched like hvt kidnapping. So wouldn't the xeno be not a trooper then? What makes him a trooper?
     
  18. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah I've brought that up before. I agree that according to the definition in the rule book a Xenotech should not be a Trooper (it can't declare attacks), and therefore shouldn't provoke ARO.

    The problem with that being that IJW (and by extension presumably CB) seems to disagree by pointing out the wording of CivEvac which says "while in CivEvac state, the Civilian is activated by the same Order as the Controller, performing the same Skills the Controllerdeclares, and provoking only one ARO from each enemy within LoF or ZoC." .

    I personally don't see how that makes a Sync'd civilian provoke an ARO if they had no rule to in the first place.

    However if IJW disagrees, I'd like to see it clarified in a way that works well.
     
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  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I assume they placed that to have a coherent "synchronization" ruleset for all units in the game.
     
  20. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
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    We are working on an ITS update to fix the issues.
    For now we are thinking to apply this: Xenotech never provoke AROs even when in the Civevac state.
     
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