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So - We Need To Talk About Tā Moko - Before Varuna

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Aug 14, 2018.

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  1. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    'Us vs Them' mentality seems to be hardwired into the human psyche. If we want everyone to be on the 'Us' team, we need an external 'Them' to unite against. Until we get that alien invasion, Nazis seem to be the goto 'Them'.
     
    #181 Pen-dragon, Aug 21, 2018
  2. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Instructions unclear, head stuck in microwave
     
    #182 Brother Smoke, Aug 21, 2018
  3. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    To tell you the truth. after all this in fighting, I'm not sure if I want to buy Varuna now. this whole thing took the joy out of looking forward to a new PanO sectorial.
     
    #183 andre61, Aug 21, 2018
  4. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Try not to let a handful of forum users affect your happiness. I'm super hyped for varuna and cant wait to get some cool new toys/tricks. A ton of people here just like to argue for arguements same. The forums are like mos eisley.
     
    #184 atomicfryingpan, Aug 21, 2018
    Teslarod and AdmiralJCJF like this.
  5. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    This forum only has as much impact on our enjoyment as we let it. I, for one, am going to enjoy my Snake Eaters and the eight Croc Men that I'll paint up.
     
    #185 A Mão Esquerda, Aug 21, 2018
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  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    As has been stated repeatedly, "blood quota" based % measurement has been thoroughly rejected in New Zealand. For more details you might want to start here:

    https://e-tangata.co.nz/identity/so-you-think-youre-maori/

    This is exactly how it played out.

    The only additional step was one from the morally outraged "don't step on my artistic freedom" brigade demanded to know what I was going to do about it, and I said that I would decline to play against someone who chose to be offensive in this way.

    Exactly, and that's both fine and great.

    Painting your mini in Ta Moko as a Maori member of the Croc Men is a great idea! Encouraging that is why I put info on what Ta Moko look like and how they are used differently on men and women in the OP.

    Precisely.

    You can do whatever you want with your miniatures.

    But some of the things you can do with your miniatures are highly disrespectful, offensive and are culturally appropriative with regards to the indigenous peoples of my nation. If you chose to be disrespectful and offensive by engaging in such cultural appropriation then I reserve the right to refrain from engaging with you in any way.

    That's a fair perspective to hold, but you should understand that in terms of offense the latter may actually be worse than the former to the indigenous culture, depending on the intent of the depiction.
     
    #186 AdmiralJCJF, Aug 21, 2018
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  7. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! but this is how I feel for now, tomorrow I might feel different, I feel like all the air was sucked out of the room unnecessarily. I'll be cool once all this pass.
     
    #187 andre61, Aug 21, 2018
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  8. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Wow, are the anti-SJWs a bunch of snowflakes. Someone posts a bit of info on how to be a tiny bit culturally sensitive when playing with your tin soldiers, and they go all monkey on us, complaining about "violence" and "thought police"!

    Learn to take it easy guys. ^^
     
    #188 Nemo No Name, Aug 21, 2018
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Funny, I saw only a few people writing about boycotting others....
     
    #189 eciu, Aug 21, 2018
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  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    It was, and is, pretty extreme.

    And, also, very confusing.

    It's almost like the very people who cry the most about freedom of expression don't want anyone else to express themselves.
     
    #190 AdmiralJCJF, Aug 21, 2018
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  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Yep, it's some pretty impressive hypocrisy, that's for sure...
     
    #191 Solar, Aug 21, 2018
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  12. devil.advocates

    devil.advocates Well-Known Member

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    Well, that explain the (almost) lack of stability on my country.

    Some people are just love em because "islam hate jew, nazi hate jew, therefore islam and nazis are battle brothers" mentality.
     
    #192 devil.advocates, Aug 22, 2018
  13. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    Here is the deal, You are not in my gaming group, and people like you are not in my group, You won't know how I paint my Croc Men, and the people in my gaming group will not care how I paint my Croc men, and what are the chances me and you will play a game, pretty much a 0, So! listen up PanO players that is not in his group or you don't have somebody like him, Paint your Croc Men how you want, as long as you don't have to deal with guy like him, that is your freedom
     
    #193 andre61, Aug 22, 2018
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  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Hey, if you don't give a shit about how your use of Maori cultural traditions might be offensive to the members of that living culture then that's on you not me.

    I'm doing my level best to be open and honest in engaging with what seems to be a pretty bloody minded determination to be deliberately offensive for the sake of it.

    But don't expect that you won't get called on it, especially if you start putting it out there online. Deliberately and knowingly violating the mana of a toanga as precious as ta moko is a decision you get to make for yourself, and I hope that you will decide not to do so if the issue ever arises.
     
    #194 AdmiralJCJF, Aug 22, 2018
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  15. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    There is one little thing that may be getting lost in all the brouhaha.

    Cubes and the associated societal changes they would bring.

    Death is no longer a certainty in this game universe. The capacity to bring back the "dead" and rehome them in a new body exists. Who you "ARE" need not necessarily be whom you look like or looked like at birth. Your identity need not be confined to your skin in this game universe.

    Is it not entirely possible, that given that premise, that there are quite possibly a few maori walking around in caucasian sleeves/Lhosts because there was no other option available at the time? They are still maori on the inside, where it counts since it seems to be more community based than colour of skin? As they still self-identify as maori, they might very well consider themselves still "worthy" of wearing ta moko?

    In much the same way that the "Church" had to adjust its doctrines v death/afterlife in the wake of the creation of the cubes, I'm sure other cultures likewise had to adapt their own ways to be at peace with it (or they made their peace and chose not to adopt the cube, satisfied with their one life.)
     
    #195 chromedog, Aug 22, 2018
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  16. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    That's a really good point!

    And I appreciate the conversation being brought back to topic.

    It's an interesting question, how Maori would view the lhost, but given that the prevailing opinion is that the "soul" or "spirit" of a person is transmitted with their personality and memory by the cube it seems likely that the answer would be yes.

    That does add another element to consider, and another approach for a variety of painting options while retaining a core of respect for the taonga.
     
    #196 AdmiralJCJF, Aug 22, 2018
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  17. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    I leave the debates about "souls" to those who believe in them - I received no religious indoctrination as a child (well, not that took, anyway) and chose to stay on that path as an adult. "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a turkey" works well enough for me.

    Same for the "clones and souls" thing. If the copy of you is identical in all respects, has your scars and memories and all the associated baggage, and you can't tell the difference, it's still you.
     
    #197 chromedog, Aug 22, 2018
  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    As @AdmiralJCJF noted, there's no % for being Maori. It's about being engaged in the culture. (For that matter, I'm not sure if I moved to NZ and had a kid there if the kid could be considered 'born there' for purposes of being Maori.)


    Please don't put words in my mouth. :imp:

    What I said was,
    If you dismiss a part of someone's self-identity as "unworthy of you caring", then don't be surprised if someone calls you an asshole.
     
    #198 Section9, Aug 22, 2018
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  19. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    I loved Altered Carbon!
     
    #199 FatherKnowsBest, Aug 22, 2018
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  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I mean, maybe don't be quite so aggressively negative about a cultural belief in a discussion about those beliefs, but ignoring the "soul" entirely doesn't make the issue go away. It simply becomes "is there continuity of experience between the first and second incarnation", which is an interesting question independently.

    Not so much.

    The key element is participation in Maori culture, and to participate in the culture fully one really would need to be fully accepted as a member of an Iwi to obtain the rights to take part in the rituals related to the land, river and mountain associated with that particular group.

    That membership is rare outside those who do not have a whakapapa or extended family link of some kind to the tribe. However some exceptional individuals (such as our current Prime Minister) have had offers of names and the opportunity to participate in those cultural practices extended to them and their children despite the lack of family ties, so it can and does happen (and has happened in the past).
     
    #200 AdmiralJCJF, Aug 22, 2018
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