Well, most HI in the game will feel inferior if you compare them with linked Hospitaliers or Santiagos. Specially when you know they have 22 point Magisters to fill up the fireteam. The point here is, if they will be relevant in Varuna and how. Not if they are as good as the best if we put them side by side.
Ok, so I hear you, but I've actually played with the ORCs a fair bit and my experience suggests that you are incorrect in your assessment. Or Combined Army, or ALEPH, or Haqqislam... Basically they can be solid against Ariadna and Tohaa. But Bolts are pretty good against two different factions too, and we all know how great THEY are, right? Sure, it's ok to be dodging on 14's. But that is costing you a lot of points, for something that only comes up when you are dodging. There's a reason Hollow Men are so damn cheap and the expensive of PH is a big part of it! That's all well and good as an argument, but every one of those units has things which allow it to leverage those few extra points into significant tabletop advantages which the ORC simply can't duplicate. It's rare to encounter a target which you can muscle through with a ORC HMG that you couldn't have managed just as easily with a Fusilier HMG in a Core or Bagh Mari HMG in a Haris for fewer points. Even with a Feuerbach, even with a Tinbot, even with a FO, even with grenades, I still don't think an ORC core is going to see play time. Certainly not often.
ORCs are hot shit. They dont deserve the flack they get anymore than TAGs do. Particularly the duo and haris options.
Disclaimer: I'm lazy about the Quote System. I've used the Orcs in vanilla and NCA quite a few times, and i'm coming to a diametrically opposed view as you, JCJF. They're quite good. I don't think the Harris has as many options as I'd like - especially if you want to push a button with them, but BSG, HMG, and MRF+Tinbot is actually a pretty versatile HI Haris, as far as dealing with a variety of problems and ranges is concerned. It's also very resilient to conventional damage - so the opponent almost always HAS to brute force the problem or use costly (in orders, points and SWC) methods to disable or destroy them. And as I said, the cost of an ORC is a points reduction significant enough to nab enough spare troops to support the ORC in a different/new way vs. just having the Swiss or Aquila. On Cost: get a Duo of CSU. Seriously, they can do some superb things for backboard defense. or some fugazi to roadblock stuff that wants to get behind your ORC(s). You can afford these things because the ORC freed up those points. This can often makes the list with an ORC vs aquila or Swiss better for going second. On hacking: Tinbot; fairy dust. Yes, it costs SWC and an order; but you almost always have hacker anyhow, and with Tinbot+Fairy Dust, the opponent is going to have trouble stopping your orcs; especially when there's THREE ORCs and the closer they get, the closer they are to getting BS20 templates on your dudez. Re: but other factions can Tinbot B instead of A; yup, but they don't get the other PanO bits. And since the bolts get dragged into this, i'll repeat myself again: the Bolt Link+Fusilier Link. Just.... go play it. cut your teeth on it. You'll learn that the Bolts basically turn NCA into another sectorial. It's not minmax. but it's really good. ITT: I don't want boring minmax! ITT: The ORCs aren't minmax enough! (that is meant to be read with levity lol) And my proposed ORC Core: i'd play it all day. You can leave it at home, while I blow up TAGs and linked teams with BS17-20 from 0 to 32 inch range that has Croc Men and REMs snaking around. I made prices up. whatever lol Varuna Whatwhats Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) ORC Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) ORC MULTI Rifle + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 41) ORC (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37) ORC Boarding Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37) CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army
Look, I get that you like ORCs, but please don't suggest CSU Duo as a defensive team is some kind of innovative new transformation to NCA play which makes them into something different. A pair of CSUs goes into basically every NCA list I run as a matter of course, that doesn't change my opinion on ORCs one jot. As to "tinbot + fairy dust = ok for hacking"... lol For a startoff, you just narrowed down your already limited options for your ORC team and likely eliminated any chance of bringing a specialist. On top of that you've also paid even more SWC on top of an already SWC expensive option. At best you've spent 122pts and 3SWC bringing something less effective than a Dragao into Acon and questionably better than a Fusilier Core HMG into NCA. ORCs are neither effective, NOR interesting. I'm not asking for both, but one or the other would be nice.
I never said CSU was some innovative new transformation. I said it was something you could afford to take for the downgrade of Swiss HMG to ORC HMG as a specific example of what the ORC lets you do. As I said: less minmax, more versatility. maybe you don't prefer to play the game this way. And since you have the CSU duo every game, I think it's good to remind you that you could then get a Hexa instead. or 3 Fugazi. Or and engineer or Trauma Doc with 2 pal bots and a Warcor. Or maybe you already have all of those things. Then maybe a Garuda. Or you could even take Bipandra! I bet your list doesn't already have her! as for the Haris vs Dragao and others... they're such wildly different choices... 3 order vs 1, different range bands, 6 wounds instead of 3, etc. It isn't one-dimensional. The point is, the downgrade to an ORC opens the window to work from more angles that the other more expensive options don't allow. It sounds like you're not interested in finding out how the ORCs work and instead have found that the ORCs do not work the same as the other stuff you like. I don't mean to be rude, but - dude - you're gonna have to get over the fact that we're all expressing opinions, here, including you. You don't have available to you any more information than I do, and your exaggeration of what i said is telling. i'll stop putting forward my opinion when you stop putting forward yours.
Amusingly I do actually have a pretty common list which does run everything there (except the 2 pal bots for the Trauma Doc, because one of them is being used by the Machinist)... including Bipandra! But it doesn't bring ORCs. You say that, but if we aren't comparing the ORC to the other things competing for the points then the discussion is meaningless. Zooming in on just the ORC Haris vs Dragao for a moment. We can call the points a wash once you've picked up two more orders to balance that out, but the Haris is more SWC in a sectorial which is notoriously demanding on that front. Higher armour and no diminishing returns from damage vs more wounds isn't a linear comparison but it's hardly a clear win to the ORCs either. Silhouette differences cut both ways too, 'though S7 is probably a small disadvantage overall. But the HRMC is a MUCH better weapon than the HMG, and although the ORCs cover in close better their massive vulnerability to other close range units means that's not somewhere they are ever going to be comfortable fighting. And this is the strongest ORC Haris build. That's not looking good. It's not downgrading, because it costs more points and SWC. That's the problem. And, again, I've used ORCs A LOT. More than I should have. This isn't me pissing theory into the imaginary wind. Instead I've had the gameplay experience to back up what the maths and the theory both already suggested.
The Orc Feuerbach is a rather interesting option. Its a potent ARO weapon and gains burst 3 in a fireteam. Its quite exceptionally deadly at the price of lacking a template. Not to mention its completely unique among basic HI fireteams. All the other basic HI fireteams use missile launchers or heavy rocket launchers. Did Pano just gain something unique? Is it possible?
@Cartographer 's highly relevant quote shows us that sometimes we just talk in order to talk. I don't try to talk people out of taking units that they enjoy. I've used the ORCs and they can deliver results. But personally, I think most armies can probably use those points to buy units that are equally capable. The full Core will be functionally different than the ORC Haris, because the full Core has much greater capability in defense. But in the case of both link types, I have some doubts that the ORC link is going to be more effective+fun+interesting to play than other ways that I could spend those points. I'm also skewed by the fact that I don't think PanO can afford to take single Combat Group lists in any mission that involves serious movement + objective oriented play. I think it's just the constraints of the system. When PanO has further to walk than everyone, doesn't have smoke, needs to maneuver for shots, can't project Hacking, etc. I think you need a Primary Group for violence and a secondary group for support/Classifieds/unopposed button pushing. That consideration alone wipes out the idea of the ORC Core for me.
Relevant statements for a "pure" core team of ORCs. Mixed ORC links with Kamau or REMs could be cheap enough to run while still having a 4-order second group. Of course, that depends on CB giving us these optimized links, which is not a sure thing. And it also begs the question, "why are you taking the ORCs at all?" unless the ORC is the glue that makes the fireteam legal. There's a lot of optimization questions to be had here, but without concrete information all I can say is that I'm hella excited to be able to field some ORCs with new gear! I'm looking forward to recreating that heady, excited feeling when I started playing Infinity and didn't know what anything did and was making lists featuring multiple Father-Knights because I loved the models.
Hmm? Don't get me wrong, I like your post. I was elaborating on your idea... Sometimes we say we love things, sometimes we hate things, because discussion is interesting and something like ORCs isn't necessarily a great or a terrible unit. @MrNailbrain Yes agreed, if the pricetag on ORC 5-man can be reduced via mixed links, that's a big deal for helping them be relevant.
A 2 ORC + 1-3 Kamau team would be really interesting. Minimum 2 ORCs means you're not just throwing in a single Feueueurbach or HMG Orc to benefit from the link bonuses, and whilst the Kamau are better at gunfighting average targets ORCs bring significant durability and are a little better against enemy visors. ORC Feueueurbach ORC Tinbot Kamau Hacker Kamau FO Kamau HMG/MSR
I've said before, allow Orcs to link with Bolts in NCA and suddenly both become very attractive. Even taking the core link but only 3-man, the B5 HMG along with a useful specialist and maybe even drop bears... Ah well, Orcs need weapon options outside of the "every PanO unit under the sun has these, so that's all we'll bring" selection that they currently have. A feuerbach is a good start, but I'd like to see Auxbot profiles (maybe even another Auxbot_2!), LSG+Panzerfaust+mines/drop bears (really make taking a Mulebot a decision rather than "oh I need another 8 point order and I've maxed Fugazi..."), some DTW of some sort. Lets hope Varuna opens up the possibilities somewhat.
The fact that you need to spend .5 swc and 41 pt so you dont get hacked.... dont know how much the ORC Feueueurbach is going to cost, but for probably same SWC and less points you can take a full Kamau link with MSR+HMG+HRL+FO+Paramedic, so you get a fire template AND MSV2 AND the HMG without being vulnerable to AHD and KHD. Maybe it works for you, i just cant see it
ORCs don't die to the first mine or DTW they face though, and the Tinbot is there for the Kamau Hacker as much as the ORCs. I think having an HI really helps shore up a Kamau team. You could also have an ORC HMG as an aggressor that doesn't die to the first unlucky ARO crit backed up by (fingers crossed) an ORC FO and the Kamau MSR. A Fuisiler + ORC team would also be ace, but possibly a bit obvious.
I've used the orcs a lot, too. Chiefly i solo the HMG LT. And I'm telling you i've had very different experience. ditto for bolts. I used them for over a year to figure them out, and in the end - yeah i believe they're overcosted a hair like ORCs are, but "not optimal" is very often what people say when they aren't willing to admit "I can't do what I want to do with this model." To make the Bolts and ORCs optimal, you have to play differently. Analysis of a venn diagram doesn't involve only looking at the overlapping components. like i said, I've had very different experiences. You have no privileged knowledge here based on theory, math, or experience - and from where i'm sitting, 2 of those tentatively says ORCs suck, and the third says "no, they're alright. Not the best thing in the game. but pretty all right." I think you should go back and approach using the ORC (and Bolt!) more like you would approach using the troops from other factions. Else, we just disagree due to having had different luck/skill/whatever related to ORCs. Oh well. Anywho, the Feuerbach in ORCs is semi-unique. Haqq gets the Azrail, and Combined gets the Sogorat Harris. I don't think the ORC Core (if it'll exist) is going to be mixed. I can't really see a fluffy-reason for it. I think its going to be down to equipment and possible price-adjust to make the ORC Core something more appealing, otherwise it's going to be a glass cannon like the MB and Suryat and so on.
