Rules you would want changed?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by timmy, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    Not really. SSL2 lets you respond to any attack normally even outside ZoC (so through smoke for instance) and also still lets you use SSL1 IIRC. Most levelled skills do. Many even stack when the previous level gave a different bonus: Full Auto L2 means +1 Burst and a -3 to enemy shooting, Marksmanship L2 ignores the -3 for cover and gives your shots a Shock effect, etc.

    It's mainly CC skills and Level X skills that specifically don't stack - Marksmanship LX specifically bars L1 and L2, as does Airborne Deployment LX bar any other level of skill (though as written it's basically a buffed L2 and can coordinated order with L1 and L2)
     
  2. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Well looking at the wiki, its not that cut and dry. SSL2 doesn't explicitely say you can use SSL1 as you want so no stacking.

    Both let you react to attacks outside your Lof. SSL2 lets you negate the mod from surprise SHOTS, while SSL1 lets you negate surprises both from melee or ranged (provided its from inside your ZOC). SSL1 also lets you delay your ARO which is pretty powerful but admittedly, needs to be inside ZoC. I'm sure many people would feel dodging shots from outside your LoF is powerful but given the sheer variability of options L1 provides, I don't feel like its a straight upgrade.

    Which furthers what I said many pages back in that level-ups of skills aren't necessarily intuitive (as demonstrated by your examples of AD and MA).
     
  3. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    Yeah,this is a small drawback of Infinity's layout at times: Sometimes a relevant thing isn't mentioned where it should be. But here, it says if it DOESN'T say otherwise, it grants lower levels. http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Special_Skills#Special_Skill_Levels
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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  5. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Noted and corrected. However I maintain that the benefits the levels confer are not necessarily intuitive.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'll be so bold as to say that a large number of levelled skills in Infinity has that problem. Martial Arts doesn't have a linear benefit, Airborne Deployment gets down-right weird going from 2 to 3 and while 3 to 4 is intuitive, 4 to 5 has a vastly different benefit. Intuitive skills like Forward Deployment 2 or Hyper-Dynamics 3 does exist, but strangely I'd say the non-linear skills are much more common.
     
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  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You know that if you have SS2 you also have SS1 ?
     
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  8. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Scroll up literally 2 messages from yours for my response :)
     
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  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    "If an LI list goes second, it can spend a command token to be able to spend two orders from it's first turn order pool before the other player takes their turn."

    That would be my proposed start for a change to that rule. I also think the order strip should scale higher for higher order counts -- it should take 3 orders from a 14+ order list and 4 from an 18+ order list (stripping one additional order for every 4 orders after that.) (But the two rules should be mutually exclusive, that is, you can't strip orders and spend orders.)

    CB should also revisit costing for things like ARM, which is really overcosted around ARM4+ or so.

    Some of the problems are still with some of the cheapest units being too effective, though, that's definitely a fact. Irregular/Ex Impetuous discount should stay what it is for units in the 25-35 point range, but the amount of cost reduction should be scaled to reduce for units as their point costs approach 0. It's something like a 60% cost reduction for units like Ghazi, when it should be about half that much, it's a little too good on Yojimbo ( I feel like he's more like 25~ points of utility) but by the time you get to McMurrough it feels fine.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The big advantage of going first is that you can skip orders by deploying certain units aggressively. Often this is mitigated by the fact that the player going second will have chosen for the opponent to deploy first and by the fact that many missions reward having the last turn (last laugh). Regardless of which, the player going second will place their reserve piece last and if that one is a heavy hitter or a good ARO piece you can mitigate the first turn advantage.

    Now I often build limited insertion lists, I'd be happy to use Armand to force your Domaru link to deploy conservatively, potentially costing you several orders just in case I use my command token this way.

    --

    Somewhat related I've been toying with the idea of an alternate deployment method where each unit gets two irregular orders that they can spend walking onto the table. During this deployment turn, models can't declare attacks other than Suppression Fire. (Forward Deployment L# grants an additional # orders, Mech Deployment move in from a single point on the table instead of table edge)

    Borrowing from this idea, what if simply a limited number of preparation orders can be given in a similar manner prior to the first turn? Give you the opportunity to put that Ryuken-9 into Suppression Fire and move the O-yoroi forward a few inches so it's got partial cover instead of having to deploy it way back due to cover issues?
     
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  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Boarding Shotgun AP rounds should be anti-material, or at least anti-material in some sort of special CC attack.
     
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  12. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    I like the idea of a special CC attack and might extend "breaching rounds" to shotguns generally, using the DAM of whatever fired it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Which would make fixing that a much bigger complication, sadly. I don't entirely mind, most of the time, but it almost certainly makes learning the game harder than it could be.


    Agreed. Shotguns need an antimaterial attack, particularly Boarding Shotguns. I'd even agree with just making it a special CC attack. (The proper breaching blast was often 3 shots on the hinge side and one on the latch side, then push the door onto the floor)

    I guess you could use a coordinated order to stack and breach a room. You can't use a Link Team, since you may need to shoot multiple targets.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Co-ord order wouldn't work either.

    BSGs with a DAM14 AM CC attack that can only be used against Scenery Items would be a good change for missions like Looting and Sabotaging and the Grid.

    CC 13-16 1STR isn't a great option, but it opens up choices a lot.

    Implement it as part of ITS.
     
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  15. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    Fireteam orders.

    They are divided in evasion skills, movement skills and support skills, right?

    It should be allowed to declare movement skills as a fireteam order, but each troop can perform a different movement. As in one can do short movement, and another one could use super jump since they are both movement skills and short orders. Easy to play, and each member can use their skills.

    Or another example with evasion skills. In ARO, a fireteam troop could declare engage, and his teammates who are farther could declare dodge. As I understand the rules now, either they all declare dodge, or all of them declare engage... And everyone else will fail because they are too far.

    I would also apply this to synchronized troops. That Seraph... If he uses short orders for jumping, his auxbot has to stay put and can't even move. The situation is ridiculous in my opinion.
     
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  16. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Isn't the whole point of a boarding shotgun having an AP slug mode to break through airlock doors during a boarding action ?
     
  17. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    How many hits of "el nabo" (it seems GC nicknamed their rams) would withstand the above kind of door?


    Notice how plaster falls from ceiling and helmets get dusty. Neighbours probably not happy with damage inside their own homes. I stopped counting at 40 "naboing".

    And you missed one or more hinges and two bolts in the corners of latch one... at least with "crappy" Spanish "to street" door. There are even better kinds with even more sliding bolts, interlocking hinges and reinforced "sheet" and "wall". I wonder if for some countries better train locksmith skills (the "crappy" doors can be opened with a good session of bumping... all neighboors will wake up tho) or true demolition tactics, instead of shotguns. That's how some anti drug raids are to be done here sometimes, "faster" to go against walls.

    Airlock doors aren't going to be flimsy. Well, those designed against boarding. Maybe those designed to just keep air inside will be different.
     
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  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So again shooting tutns out to be much better than CC ?
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Agree on this. Don't know whether your doors are crappy, but the Swedish industry standard agrees with you and what you describe is what I've been lead to believe is the minimum level of security door installed on new constructions over here (and nearly no construction company installs minimum level). Additionally, I'd expect plastic film reinforcement of windows to get significantly more common as time passes.
    Shotguns are probably not very effective.
     
  20. leigen_zero

    leigen_zero Morat Pacifist

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    I'd like to see the falling damage rules changed a little.

    Either get rid of the 'roll until passed or dead' or ignore the first 'MOV-sized segment' of the fall.

    It just seems a bit weird that in a game played with apparently highly-trained professional soliders, they all try to cushion their fall with their neck...

    Even with untrained people IRL, most people can survive a fall from roughly a first-floor height window without too much injury (from the research I've been able to do, anything under 14 feet is generally non-fatal/minimal injury (for reference, an inch in 28mm scale is roughly 5 feet)) you don't hit 100% fatal until roughly 49 feet. So an average LI in infinity should be able to get down from a single-storey building without having a roughly 50/50 chance of insta-death, assuming that as professional soldiers they have probably had tuck-and-roll training at some point.

    Edit: yes I'm aware than in real-life any fall can be fatal, and there are lots of variables, but the penalities for falling in Infinity seem a little too harsh
     
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