The main problem of SMG is the cost, if it is better than Combi on quite a few aspects (and worse at some you almost never use), why is it soo much cheaper than a Combi? And check what CB is doing with it. It's basicly "way to make units cheaper".
The new hot shit after Frenzy. With the new FAQ how Shock works against multiwound models I'm almost okay how they work now. What I'd really like to see removed is their ability to switch AMMO types. Split them in the usual one out of Normal/Shock/AP only categories. They're not guns you'll see on the troops that you spend most of your Orders on, but a backfielder/filler negating NWI/Dogged while dropping Jotums to ARM5 is not great for gamedesign. I'd be fine with a Shock SMGs that suffer vs Bioimmunity and an AP SMGs that doesn't do much against low ARM NWI/Dogged troops.
@loricus that's a good summary - I'll add that I, and I think a few others, were sort of in both camps until the SMG started getting tossed around to everyone. It was much less of a balance issue when only a few profiles got it.
I find it weird that no one has mentioned in this thread the Kawaii Sentinels... 12 points for the SMG profile, on a trooper that completly ignores camo. After you clear the worst ARO pieces, use Coordinated Orders to move 3 or 4 of them closer to the midfield and put them in Supression Fire. Very nasty.
Cause you don't see them offen. 48 points is an complete triad. I tried 2 of them at the beginning, but mostley didn't want to spend an whole order for only two units to set them into SF. And I'll take two Chaksa HFT bevor I would take two Kaauri. EDIT: big problem is the BS 11 for me too.
Pair them with Taqeul, as he is already a non-linkable trooper and gives you an extra Command Token (with Lt. profile).
In my opinion the discounted weapons (those that are cheaper than a combi rifle), with the exception of boarding shotgun are way too cheap. SMG, chain rifle, light shotgun (when you don't have anything else, so not Missile launcher + Light shotgun or Combi rifle + Light shotgun, just the Light shotgun), and they are not that much worse than a combi rifle. Usually they have the same or similar efficiency with different use.
Sentinels are another casualty of the Tohaa phenomenon. Fantastic unit, any army would be lucky to have them... Unless you already have Makaul, Kaeltar, Sukeul, in which case you're already fielding better.
Yeah they cover a problem that is already solved and fill a niche the generalists can cover. At least they're not useless as the only toop with STR in Tohaa for Highly Classified.
Thorakitai aren't even close to egariously unpleasant with SMGs because in SP they are typically linked, and therefore cannot go on suppression, and therefore use SMG range bands in ARO, which are much worse than combi range bands. So the only line trooper with a SMG is often gimped in the use of said SMG by nature. In Vanilla Frenzy is much more of a problem for them too.
Okay, so a small exercise. 1. Is there any SMG-wielding unit that would be better off in its role if you were allowed to pay for a Combi or a BSG? 2. Is there any Boarding Shotgun unit that would be better off with an SMG, even if they didn't receive the points discount? On number 2, as far as I can tell, an SMG is marginally worse than a BSG at short range and even more marginally better at 8+", however it allows the unit to enter Suppression Fire. Both against a 5-man Kempeitai with SMMR and against an O-Yoroi the Wu Ming SMG and BSG performs ridiculously similar at short and medium range. It's hot and I'm hungry, that's all I'll check for now, but from this data an SMG is nothing more than a sneak-cheap BSG that's worse in reactive but that can enter Suppression Fire to become significantly better. From this I'd say BSG and SMG should cost the same. That... doesn't make much sense. If suppression fire was better, surely people wouldn't put them in link teams?
The Dire Foe Light Rocket Launcher really likes having 6th Sense and +1 Burst, so it's tricky. Suppress with those lone SMGs, or create a very good ODD-wielding offensive and defensive ARO piece.
Regardless, cheap Thorakite specialists/cheerleaders are common in vanilla Aleph. They can also have 360 visors to make that even more annoying.
So... get 2 to suppress? They don't cost much... I mean, this is not mutually exclusive since AVA is so high.
Totally a valid idea. I'm not a Steel Phalanx player, but I suspect that the 16 point Myrmidon competes pretty directly with the point total of Thorakitai, and those Myrmidons are obviously a pretty dang good purchase for filling out Enomotarchos teams.
I like the idea of splitting the ammo types a lot. Smg bring a lot of versatility without paying for it.
People put them in fireteams for the same reason that people put any cheap profiles in a fireteam: to give bonuses to the squad's HMG, Spitfire or whatever. You can do this with Thoras and it works pretty well, and it stops their Frenzy from kicking in, so it's a good idea. Also a B2 Chain Rifle ARO is pretty good! But if they had combis, they'd be way better. And indeed, they can take combis for an appropriate points increase too! Fusiliers are probably better off in suppression over getting the fireteam bonuses in ARO too, but the difference is more pronounced with the SMG ranges. In practical terms, the Thoras I encounter that cause me problems are ones in fireteams, and in a fireteam, a SMG is notably inferior to the combi, because really it's suppression that means it comes close. Which makes me thing whether actually if there is an issue, its with suppression fire, because it changes range bands. Should SMGs be able to suppress? Should suppression fire work in some way off the base range bands?
